Osama Bin Laden: dead

[Xrayted]

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

[NbyNW]

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

I wouldn't call it an honor. An honor would be giving his body over to his family (if they even want him) or followers and a cleric of his choosing. I think the burial at sea was more like taking the high road or not crossing a line. Because too many lines have been crossed by both sides already. And not throwing more fuel on an already out of control fire.

Oh, and here's a more-eloquent-than-mine piece on why not to release the photos.

[Kitsune06]

Oh, no, I'm sure we probably did get him, I mean if the RIAA can find people illegally downloading music all over the country and Corbin Fisher can seek out teens illegally downloading gay pr0n, then I would hope that in ten years we can find a man in a desert with 2 million troops deployed. I'm just saying it's odd that we didn't really gloat in it. We didn't take him and keep him in some dark little hole like Guantanimo and just say he died on-site. We didn't take him into custody and interrogate him until we knew everything about Al-Quaida's workings and then snuff him. We didn't parade him around. That's almost unAmerican for a country and culture that thrives on sensationalism and media fervor. You can spin our reasons for it however you want to. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and if you work hard enough to find a good reason not to have some kind of evidence, you will probably find or create one.

I'm just saying that if someone told you something that seemed off, would you believe it without thinking, or would you want some form of proof to put it in context? Anything with this much meaning, symbolism and potential concequence deserves to be ruminated on instead of taken at face value.

I'm not going off on how the government collected kids' baby teeth to test for strontium-90 post nuclear testing, or how we tested the effects of radiation on pregnant women, or how downwinders in Utah and Nevada are still suffering from the effects of nuclear fallout even though the US government said it was completely safe. Yes there is a specific theme to those, these are studies we've learned about in our radiation biology class, but there are many other tests on US civillians that the government has not told us about. Forgive my relative paranoia, but after reading these, it's hard not to feel that way.

I am just saying that we need to be aware that we are not always told the truth in this world, and the important things are worth questioning. Or not. Feel free.

[KnottedYet]

Anything with this much meaning, symbolism and potential concequence deserves to be ruminated on instead of taken at face value.

I believe everything I am told, unquestioningly and at face value. Anything less would be unpatriotic! I'm a good American. Double-plus good!

(extra credit for those of you who took English 101, or just bought the Eurythmics album... even if only for the great pictures of Annie Lennox in fatigues)

Seriously, though, let's take a moment to think about this event and all its repercussions.

(one of my immediate thoughts was for my ex-brother-in-law, who is a Navy seal and is the first line guy who rappels from the helicopter)

Our animal instinct is to hoot and holler and celebrate like chimps after killing a monkey. Once we have that vented or controlled, it is our responsibility as adult humans to ponder the event and pray.

What would Jesus do?

Would He dance in the streets? Would He shout "In your FACE" and drop His pants to moon a photograph?

Or would He realize this was a painful thing, the Right to Life was taken from one of God's children, and we should solemnly shoulder the collective responsibility for what we have done, regardless?

[ny biker]

One of my immediate thoughts was for my brother-in-law, who is one of the many volunteer firemen on Long Island who went into the city on 9/11. When he left, my sister thought she'd never see him again.

[Irulan]

Really? That quick you thought about not having a shrine to him? Way faster than me, I guess. It took me about 10 minutes in my own thoughts to come up with that scenario. Still, I don't see why we afforded him that kind of honor.

Nowhere have I read that he was "Buried at sea with honor". More likely, dumped in the ocean. Where does is it written that if someone is buried at sea that it automatically infers a burial with honor...???

The not leaving a place for a shrine thing is a really big deal. DH and I were discussing that when the news first broke. I did read that the body was prepared according to religious guidelines, no need to fan the flames by disregarding that part of it.

[snapdragen]

From ABC:Officials said that, in accordance with Muslim law, bin Laden's burial at sea was conducted by a Muslim seaman, who recited the prayers and ensured that the body was washed and wrapped appropriately in cloth.

[Irulan]

from the Lede Blog

Following the firefight, the noncombatants were moved to a safe location as the damaged helicopter was detonated. The team departed the scene via helicopter to the U.S.S. Carl Vinson in the north Arabian Sea. Aboard the U.S.S. Carl Vinson, the burial of Bin Laden was done in accordance with Islamic precepts and practices. The deceased's body was washed and then placed in a white sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. After the words were complete, the body was placed on prepared flat board, tipped up, and the deceased body eased into the sea.

[Xrayted]

Nowhere have I read that he was "Buried at sea with honor". More likely, dumped in the ocean. Where does is it written that if someone is buried at sea that it automatically infers a burial with honor...???

The not leaving a place for a shrine thing is a really big deal. DH and I were discussing that when the news first broke. I did read that the body was prepared according to religious guidelines, no need to fan the flames by disregarding that part of it.

Actually, it's written in the Naval Military Funerals Book... NORMALLY, you can't be buried at sea off of one of our Naval Vessels unless you are in this list. Period.

AT SEA DISPOSITION
ART. 2-1. Eligibility. The regulations for the disposition of remains and inurned cremated remains (cremains) from a naval vessel, or inurned cremains
from a naval aircraft are set forth by the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery.
The following persons are eligible for at sea disposition:
1. Members of the uniformed services.
2. Retired members of the uniformed services.
3. Former members of the uniformed services honorably discharged.
4. U.S. Civilian Marine Personnel of the Military Sealift Command.
5. Dependents of members and dependents of former members of the uniformed services.
6. Other U.S. citizens who are determined eligible by notable service or outstanding contributions to the United States.



Since it seems I have to spell it out... he deserved no washing, no prayers in his native language, no 72 virgins, nothing. He got what an honored American would have gotten for a sea burial, all except (I assume) the salute, symbolic firing of rifles and the US flag draped over him until slid overboard. He most likely would have been put on the same board as an honored American (I'm assuming here that they didn't take the time to whittle a new one just for him), feet end hanging off the edge, tipped up and slid into the sea. Usually 3 bearers on each side securing the body while at rest and in motion. He got much better than he deserved and more than most Americans could have, even if they fill out the 3 million forms necessary. In triplicate, single spaced. That, ladies and gentleman, was an honor he didn't deserve. Getting shot quickly in the head, not part by part, lingering in his pain and fear over days and weeks... our troops showed him mercy. He didn't deserve it, not one iota. But he got it. I'm happy he's dead.

I still remember that morning in PA, waking up to the news broadcast showing the planes hitting the towers, the Pentagon and then finding out just 150 miles away in my state, flight 93 crashed. I remember knowing that family members were supposed to be in the towers that morning, up on the top, having a breakfast meeting for business. Their 2 year old daughter, back with my SIL, quietly playing. We wrung our hands all day, trying to get word of whether or not they were still alive, wondering how in the world we were ever going to be able to explain to that beautiful little girl what happened to her parents. Luckily, they ended up delaying the meeting with the airline reps until lunch and had not stepped foot in the towers that day. I remember smelling the slightly ashy, burnt air for days after as it floated down the east coast to our area. It's been imprinted, like a bad tattoo. I know that area flight 93 went down in. I had visited there as a teen and adult. I know that of those few brave men that banded together, stood up and risked it all on that plane, one of them was, in this country, considered a 2nd class citizen because he was gay. None of them got a proper burial, not religious nor clean. I remember praying for all those who were directly affected and sending care packages to my fellow EMT's, Medics and firefighters. Wanting to be able to help more directly but unable to. I believe bin Laden's "tidy" death and burial was an honor he didn't deserve. Plain and simple. For us to do that, to bestow any compassion or kindness upon him after what he did, shows how incredible our country and our benevolent way of life truly is. That doesn't mean I have to always like it.


Meanwhile back on the ranch, people danced in the streets and had a party or two. The dichotomy was deafening.

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm not disputing your perspective xray, but "everything is permissible, not everything is constructive".

It's sometimes better to do something that is nice but not necessary than it is to just do what's necessary.

[NbyNW]

Yeah, the partying in the streets was a bit odd. But that public expression of emotion does not necessarily reflect the feelings of all Americans. My guess is that plenty of people have NOT felt like celebrating, since this does not bring their loved ones back. For me personally it was a moment to reflect on the last 10 years and what may be ahead. Because only time will tell if this changes anything.

Oh and X, regardless of what our military did with bin Laden's body, I'm pretty sure he's going to a special place in hell and there will be no virgins to greet him.

[Irulan]

While I'm sure a lot of folks think that putting the body in a Hefty bag and tossing it over the side might be appropriate, it would also potentially incite a continuation or rise in more anti US sentiment.

[PamNY]

I sometimes find irreverent humor helpful -- anyone similarly inclined might enjoy what The Onion has to say on this topic.

[Trek420]

I know that area flight 93 went down in. I had visited there as a teen and adult. I know that of those few brave men that banded together, stood up and risked it all on that plane, one of them was, in this country, considered a 2nd class citizen because he was gay. None of them got a proper burial, not religious nor clean.

But they do have a memorial in the Bay Area where many of the passengers were headed that day or from.

RIP passengers and crew of Flight 93.

http://www.flight93memorialsfb.com/