How much do looks define your self-image?

[lph]

I was thinking of posting this on the "best bike advice"-thread, but I felt it was getting a bit heated and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a spin-off.

Ok, so society's superficial norms tell us that young women are hot, older women aren't. That is annoying to most of us, since we can't avoid aging and it doesn't seem to apply to men, not as much at least. But why are we so obsessed about being hot in the first place? If at 40 or 50 or 60 you have a good career and/or a loving family and/or good friends or in general a good satisfying life, why should it bother you if you're not considered as smoking as when you were 25? Aren't we just buying into the whole "beauty rules the world"-idea?

What I love about both biking and climbing is that moves focus from what you look like to what you can do. It has the added bonus of making your body look better, but that's a side effect of being out there and DOING lots of stuff. Biking is an endurance sport, we can do this until we keel over from old age. Sure, I'm not thrilled about getting gray hair, wrinkles and a thicker middle, but the improvement I still can make in my own physical fitness, and the stuff this allows me to do, way outweighs this.

At work and running out of points, but if anyone wants to join in, feel free.

[Mr. Bloom]

I think the superficial norms you refer to are media hype and not mainstream belief. Superficial people hold on to those icons...not mainstream folks.

I acknowledge that the hype doesn't apply it in the same way to men...but I assure you that men apply the same standard to themselves. Barbara Walters (I think??) interviewed Paul Newman and essentially asked him if he knew what a hottie he was...his response was "I feel ancient"... I could only hope to be half as ancient as him at that age.

Don't confuse "hot" with "attractive" or "desirable"...what made Paul Newman desirable as he aged was an attitude, an energy, and a graceful disposition.

I think of Sarah Cannon (Minnie Pearl)...there was nothing "hot" about her or her character, but when she walked into a room, the room was filled with her grace and class...and she had LOTS of it.

Attractiveness comes from within, in the attitude...not from age or media hype

JMHO

PS: Sorry, I've not followed the "best bike advice" thread...

[uforgot]

Don't confuse "hot" with "attractive" or "desirable"...what made Paul Newman desirable as he aged was an attitude, an energy, and a graceful disposition.

I think of Sarah Cannon (Minnie Pearl)...there was nothing "hot" about her or her character, but when she walked into a room, the room was filled with her grace and class...and she had LOTS of it.

Attractiveness comes from within, in the attitude...not from age or media hype

JMHO

PS: Sorry, I've not followed the "best bike advice" thread...

Well said, Mr. Silver. You should go read the best advice thread. Your quote belongs there.

[lph]

yup, but I think they affect us more than we like to acknowledge.

I happened to think of a reality show I surfed into on tv one night, where the big challenge, and the chance to win a large cash prize, involved the woman (of a couple) cutting her hair in a pretty wild haircut. To begin with they were all gung-ho and rah-rah about this, but when the hairdresser was actually standing there with a shaver... 2 out of 3 refused. You could see that this went beyond a game and suddenly became very serious to them, and they got weepy and upset. Looks do matter a lot, to very many women.

But hey, I'd be happy to be told that this isn't a big issue.

[OakLeaf]

Hair is funny because it can change so radically so quickly. Even though it will grow back out (for most people), there's no hiding it for those weeks or months until it does. You don't get wrinkles, gain weight, get b00bsag, whatever, in 30 minutes without any ability to process the change emotionally, but your hair affects your appearance just as much as those things.

I've definitely had haircuts that have left me in tears, and pretty recently too. Granted a large part of it was tears of frustation with I think six consecutive stylists in my new town who gave me truly horrible haircuts.

Losing a chunk of my breast - even the relatively small chunk of a biopsy - has definitely affected me emotionally. Although of course it's hard to say how much of that is just the appearance (definitely some) and how much seeing it triggers all the emotions that went with it.

I think it's only natural. Look at the displays that animals go through to change their appearance, both voluntary things like puffing out fur, spreading a cobra's hood, etc.; semi-voluntary things like when an animal pumps blood to an area to change its color; and involuntary things like seasonal variations in plumage. Putting on a suit to go to court used to feel like donning a suit of armor (and if you know any mediaeval or classical literature, traditionally there are extended arming scenes where the hero puts on his armor, but also metaphorically and emotionally prepares himself for the conflict).

All anyone has to do is ask yourself whether you'd wear the same clothes to clean toilets and to go to a charity ball, and you have your answer as to how much appearance matters. You can't say that clothes matter but the body underneath doesn't. We don't have to like it, but I think we do have to acknowledge it.

[Miranda]

Hair is funny because it can change so radically so quickly. Even though it will grow back out (for most people), there's no hiding it for those weeks or months until it does. You don't get wrinkles, gain weight, get b00bsag, whatever, in 30 minutes without any ability to process the change emotionally, but your hair affects your appearance just as much as those things.

I've definitely had haircuts that have left me in tears, and pretty recently too. Granted a large part of it was tears of frustation with I think six consecutive stylists in my new town who gave me truly horrible haircuts.

I am still thinking about my overall response to this thread. Good one, lph.

However, Oakleaf...

I am a natural redhead. If you ask Mr. Google, only 1-2% of human world population is born that way. All my life, it has been the one thing I consider to be a uniqueness that makes me... "me".

Well, short of the story, major disaster with the hairdresser and finding a good new one is a freakin nightmare. Here's a tip someone gave to me, that I recently just applied...

The next time you are out and see some woman with beautiful hair you lust after etc., go talk to her. Pay her the compliment of her beautiful hair, and then ask who is her stylist. IME the woman will be flattered, and happy to tell you where to go find the stylist.

When you find this person, do not make the first meeting the actual hair cut appointment. Call ahead and/or stop by to meet the person. Some do a consult appointment. Get their opinion, and get a vibe of how the two of you gel together... and/or look at her client that might be there at the time. IF all that feels "ok", then proceed with a basic trim appointment. If you feel good about that, then do the next one to something else if desired.

Signed,
Miranda
Neurotic Vain Hair Person

[Bruno28]

Alternatively - wait until your hair is such a disaster area that you are forced to walk into the nearest hairdresser and ask for 'something short and easy to manage'

Realise that even the worst haircut will grow out in a matter of a couple of weeks.

Bruno - who's really not that comfortable with people invading her personal space.

Imagine my reaction to my friend's suggestion we have a pre-wedding spa day. (Her response - 'I sense your buttocks are clenching')

[OakLeaf]

walk into the nearest hairdresser and ask for 'something short and easy to manage'

Uh-uh. My hair is short and spectacularly easy to manage. I had no idea how much skill it takes to cut it until I learned the hard way!

Thanks, Miranda - part of that equation is also making sure the person you ask has hair like yours, too - thick or thin, coarse or fine, whether the cut is traditional or contemporary, etc. I did that once but unfortunately her stylist wasn't taking any new clients.

I've finally found someone who does a pretty good job with my hair and I'm sticking with him... even though his salon is dirty, he smells like cigarette smoke and he's constantly complaining about his son's mother, politics, or something. It's totally worth it to tolerate the nasty environment once every three or four weeks, to get a decent haircut.

[Aggie_Ama]

The most gorgeous man on the planet to me (other than my husband) will forever be George Strait. He refuses to change who he is for anyone or anything, it is pure class. I loved him even more when I bowled a league with his son and never knew it was his son until I opened my "Strait out of the box" booklet and saw his picture. The most unpretentious, unassuming, millionaire's kid at A&M. Maybe Mom and Dad don't let him have any money or maybe it just says something about them. Like Paul Newman was gorgeous into his 80's but you have to admit what really made you listen was he had something to say!

Funny thing is I dye my hair because it going grey (RAPIDLY) and I like the natural highlight color but not the natural color. But I don't do much of anything else with it. It is long and pin straight. I feel a bit embarrassed because one co-worker is in love with it and I just brush it and let it be. She would die to have it. I feel the best when I braid it in pigtails because the "pochahantas" braids make DH laugh and he LOVES them, it is his favorite way to see my hair. I feel sexy but I look 5 years old!

I wear eye makeup but it is the same every day- neutral shadow, brown liner, dark brown mascara. I don't know why I do it, maybe for me, maybe for society. I rarely put on lipstick or blush. I wear foundation but it serves a dual purpose of being SPF 20. I am getting wrinkles suddenly but I try not to dwell on them like some of my friends or co-workers.

I hate getting complimented on my d-cup chest. My mom's family is well endowed, I didn't get to chose the gene pool. I much rather hear "You look so fit" than my a-cup friend say she would kill for my chest. I work hard to minimize the big thighs my dad also has so compliment me on how I have lost weight cycling or running because that is something I actually work for and am proud of!

To the original question. My age group of co-workers is obsessed with these pop-tart celebs. Talking about how skinny Paris or who ever is. I really don't care what they wear, how they eat, what they drive. I wear what I wear, I do what I do. So I am a bit of an odd duck for a 28 year old but I am happy to be the weirdo, I don't obssess about why I am not a size 2. I don't blow my paycheck on the jeans of the week. But it is out there and it is sad- IMO.

[redrhodie]

That thread got me thinking, too. Society may not think I'm as hot as I was at 20, but I FEEL hotter now. If given the choice, I would not go back to my younger self. I feel stronger than ever, and I think I look better than ever, too.

So, I guess I am still defined by my self image, but that image is finally something I like, not something I want to change. Who would have thought, that the girl who hated her appearance for so many years, would finally be able to feel this way! Yay for getting older!

[short cut sally]

Well said Mr. Silver...

I did feel better about myself say about 3 years ago, when I just lost 40#'s, and could fit into those "skinny jeans" -ok, my version of skinny jeans. I've gained some weight back, but I am still considering myself in better shape now than what I was in high school. I played sports too in school. I am presently 42.

[indysteel]

I think the average person wants to feel pretty or attractive on some level, but what that means probably differs from person to person. For some, they may be fixated on what society--or what they perceive society--sees as attractive. Others may see their attractiveness as a function of their fitness, energy, and overall health. Others may see it solely as something that you project from the inside. Still others may see it as a combination of all those things.

I will admit that I've been plagued at times with self-image problems. I've fixated, to greater on lesser degrees, on things that I perceive as being physically "wrong" with me. The best way that I can describe it is that there are days where my self image is extremely distorted. I've taken both healthy and unhealthy approaches to deal with these problems. It's taken me a long time to come to some degree of peace about it, and to be honest, I think it's something that I'll never entirely put to bed.

If you asked me on a good day whether my self esteem is based on my looks, I'd give an emphatic "no." But when I'm having an ugly day--and thankfully they don't happen all that often now--I feel like poo. For instance, I currently wear braces. I didn't have them as a kid, but I decided to get them as an adult to fix some functional and cosmetic issues that had long bothered me. Most days, I don't give them or my appearance with them much thought. On the days that my orthodontist wants to go over my progress by showing me all manner of unflattering pictures of both the inside and outside of my mouth, I just want to crawl under a rock. It usually takes me a day or two to rebound.

I'm not proud of this, necessarily, and to be honest, I don't usually talk about this stuff with anyone. I'd been in therapy for five years before I brought it up--and there was nothing else that I kept from her. So, at least for me, there's a lot of shame associated with these feelings.

I have to be VERY careful with this stuff when it comes to my boyfriend. While he's very complimentary, I don't want to rely on what he says or think too much, or at all. While I appreciate his compliments, the "solution" to these issues doesn't lie with affirmation from other people. It is up to me--and only me--to change my own thinking about myself.

Wow; I must really trust you ladies (and Mr. Silver ) to have just shared all that.......

[eclectic]

That thread got me thinking, too. Society may not think I'm as hot as I was at 20, but I FEEL hotter now. If given the choice, I would not go back to my younger self. I feel stronger than ever, and I think I look better than ever, too.

So, I guess I am still defined by my self image, but that image is finally something I like, not something I want to change. Who would have thought, that the girl who hated her appearance for so many years, would finally be able to feel this way! Yay for getting older!

Yeah redrhodie! ! ! !

Since I turned 50 I do feel waaaaay better about myself. I look in the mirror and think - you look pretty darn good for 52!

I do dye my hair, when I was younger I said I never would, but it faded to a very unattractive mousey gray that isn't pretty on anyone and I felt dragged me down.
I let my hair grow just for convenience - it is has a lot of natural curl (think poodle when it is short) so wearing it long and being able to ponytail or french braid it is much simpler

I am trying to lose weight partially for looks but a lot more so I can ride up hills faster and run faster.

And, Yes, I do have to admit it feels good to look "HOT" once in awhile. I am single and it is an ego boost to get "hit on" by guys in their 30's. And no . . . it wasn't that dark in there

But at the end of the day it isn't how hot you look - as Mr Silver said - it is what your personality is - a lot of "hot" people get pretty ugly after you get to know them.

Here is a story on how much value a lot of people put on looks.
True BTW the poor ex-husband works w/ a friend of mine

When they filed for divorce she put in the decree that he was to pay for her to get breast implants because in her words "she had to be on the market again and needed to look her best" (I guess she didn't care if they knew what color her eyes were)

Unbelievingly the judge upheld the request the only thing he changed was she pay for 1/2 and the ex-husband pay for 1/2.

Unbeknownst to her she is being snickered about a lot behind her back that she is that shallow and he was smart to be rid of her.
BUT she does get a lot of dates.

I, on the other hand, am now happy to be a B - they don't sag, I can run w/o a bra, and they don't define who I am as a woman AND I can button up all my shirts, and the mammogram only takes 2 shots per side . . . need I go on?

[Aggie_Ama]

I do know a lot of women who feel much better about themselves after getting implants, which I think is a perfectly fine reason to get plastic surgery. I knew someone who got a nose job, same thing. She didn't obsess over it or discuss it to the point of making us sick. She just did it and then told us once. It was the end of it. I just feel awkward and even annoyed somedays being complimented on something I didn't ask for that I find a bit trivial. And I do have a friend that I love dearly that is absolutely obssessed with wanting implants to the point that I think it is unhealthy. In the five years we have been friends my breasts and her lack of has been discussed more times than I really think is appropriate. I still cherish her friendship but I tell her about it. I also tell her if she does buy herself implants I don't think it will solve the true problem (but probably not in such a blunt way). She knows she has self-esteem issues.

Now when the only cousin (there are 5 kids) that didn't getting blue eyes goes on about my blue eyes, I laugh! And I do relish compliments on my blue eyes, they are just like my dad's. Probably why I wear make up every day, they have drawn compliments all my life. So I guess we all have the potential to be vain.

[beccaB]

My hair is turning silver and I think it is a bright vibrant color, and actually pretty. It makes my plain brown hair more interesting. But it amazes me how many people have noticed it and asked me if I will get it colored! I am NOT into that kind of maintenance!
If you want to experience what being superficial is, ride on a school bus and listen to pre-teens. I am shocked and appalled at their belief system and how easily they voice their opinions, however misguided.