So dissapointed

[Catrin]

+100 on what Eden said. Starting with genetics there really isn't a true even playing field so this really isn't a good argument against doping - or at least not the only argument against it. That being said, someone probably won't be able reach that level of competition unless they have some genetic dice rolls in their favor to begin with - so leaving out the performance enhancing drugs does help to even things out.

Eden I love your analogy - I KNOW I couldn't out-ride Lance in those conditions, indeed I probably couldn't even keep up with him...

[Possegal]

Eden I love your analogy - I KNOW I couldn't out-ride Lance in those conditions, indeed I probably couldn't even keep up with him...

I raced against him a couple weeks ago. He passed me. Twice. (not wanting to get into the discussion really, just had to drop that in there).

[lph]

I completely get what Eden is saying about there not being a level playing field in the first place, but that doesn't discredit the idea in any way to me. It's about leveling the field as much as possible. As much as reasonably possible. And all the argument goes on within the definition of "reasonable". So what goes into a fantastic performance? Genetics, culture, opportunity, support, (time, money) training, determination, nutrition, good medical care for injuries, drugs... You can't do anything about genetics. Elite level sports is partly about showing off a nations culture and attitude to sports, so as much as we could wish for poor athletes to be given the same opportunities as the ones from rich countries, it's not going to happen. Money and time and support and opportunity is always going to be unevenly distributed. So what is reasonable when it comes to nutrition, medical care and drugs? Where do you draw the lines between normal healthy nutrition and medical care, which is "performance-enhancing" compared to poorer nutrition, and what is not acceptable? I have no idea. That's why we have to have set guidelines I guess, where drug A is an accepted supplement, and drug B is banned, and everyone just has to comply whether they agree or not.

I don't really have any strong opinions on this. Only that once the guidelines are there, willfully breaking them is obviously cheating. What I get out of the whole mess is just a strong feeling that it's a long time since elite level athletes really were good ideals. I am still inspired by some of them, but I can't imagine really living their lives. They live like astronauts, in a bubble that I have no wish to share with them. The athletes I truly look up to are people I can identify with, people who have jobs or are parents, who live somewhat normal, balanced lives and still manage to perform well.

[pll]

I think it is important not to loose track that doping in Armstrong's teams seems to have been organized, pervasive. I am sure there were/are many dopers in the professional peloton, but what makes US Postal so insidious was the level of organization and research effort to avoid detection that went into "the program". And the pressure put on team riders to dope... The worst kind of "team effort" conceivable.