Tell me about cadence

[westtexas]

Hi all,

Been reading on Sheldon Brown's web site about all things bicycle when I came across the concept of cadence (is it weird that I don't know about this?). He posits that most newbie cyclists, such as myself, pedal too slowly in too high a gear when the optimal would be to spin faster in a lower gear.

This morning on my ride I got smoked by two dudes (one in jeans and a flannel shirt ) who were pedaling like maniacs. The second guy in his full cycling regalia came out of nowhere and cycled right by me as if the wind were not even blowing (and it was probably 20mph with 25-35 mph gusts). I was afraid I would not even be able to stay upright, and when I shifted into an easier gear I became violently unstable.

What is the importance of cadence? Sheldon Brown seems like the go-to guy for all things cycling, so I have faith in what he is saying. But spinning doesn't seems to get me much of anywhere and it feels so much slower and unstable (when in reality the opposite is true?). Is the only way to measure cadence by getting a cycling computer? How do you arrive at an appropriate cadence for your person? How does one train themselves to pedal faster in lower gears and still feel like you are moving and not floundering around (especially on hills)?

Thanks in advance.

[Kitsune06]

I'm going to make a motor analogy, but bear with me. Cadence is directly comparable to the RPMs in your car. High cadence is like not shifting right away into the next highest gear. Sure you hear the engine wind up, but many engines function better at higher RPMs because you're handling force in little bites instead of mashing hard. If you shift too soon, you might see your tach around 1k RPMs and hear/feel the car struggle a bit, if you don't 'kill' it and have it shut off on you.

The key is to find a gear that allows you to feel stable and still take just little, manageable bites of the force required to get where you're going instead of a) going to a gear too high and wobbling or b) standing and mashing.

I still don't always find that middle ground, I'm way, way too prone to the stand-and-mash... but I'm working on it.

This site might explain more and in a better way.
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/touring/gears.htm

Also, as I understand it, the keys to higher cadence can come from spinning classes but also from a proper fit to your bike. If your hips are wobbling from side to side because your saddle's too high, you will go all over the place at high cadence. If you let your core relax too much so when you really start spinning, your center of balance deviates from where it should align with the bike, you'll wobble.

like I said, I'm still working on this, though. I'm naturally a sprinter, would prefer to do something a few times w/ a lot of force than endurance anything but maybe I can retrain myself.

[radacrider]

For racers, they train to spin at a pretty high cadence, which allows for power and speed while still allowing for endurance.

It takes practice to retrain your legs to spin faster. Also, you have to learn what your natural cadence is. Start by riding as you would, then whatever that gear is, shift 1 lower. Get use to the feel of that.

For me, I am likely somewhere just below the 90 mark. Works for me. I have, basically, better slow twitch muscles, less fast twitch. Not much of a sprinter, but I can ride all day long.

My son use to pedal very slowly. On a few rides I had him try a lower gear for more spin. He now spins better and does not get as tired out, and still goes pretty fast.

As you train and practice, you will discover your ideal cadence. When you do find your ideal, I believe you will know it - you will be riding along, feeling pretty fast and not feeling like you are really exerting much effort - at least that is how it is with me.

[MollyJ]

Hey, there! As you know I am a newest of newbies and here are the two articles I've printed out to read on Cadence:

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/art...-matters-16394

http://knol.google.com/k/proper-cadence-in-cycling#

My plan is to get a baseline cadence, read MORE about it, work on it and match it with my calorie burn on the HRM. Then I will see where that takes me.

[westtexas]

... like I said, I'm still working on this, though. I'm naturally a sprinter, would prefer to do something a few times w/ a lot of force than endurance anything but maybe I can retrain myself.

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.

I've had my bike professionally fit and I don't have any pains or problems there, as far as a know. My only complaint is now that I've "stretched out" a bit from two months of cycling, I can definitely tell my frame is way too small, but there is nothing I can really do about that right now (already extended the front stem as much as possible).

Maybe my trouble is stemming from a desire to go really fast for a really long time and not having the muscle strength or cardiovascular health to do it. Spin classes look absolutely dreadfully boring to me, but I suppose I could get rollers or a trainer (preferably rollers) to practice on to build these things up. Maybe what I really need is a cycling computer so I can see where I sit to know where I need to go.

Hmm.

Thanks all for the articles, I'm reading them right now.

[Catrin]

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.

I have the same preference, though I am finding my cadence doesn't change overly much between climbing and flats - regardless of terrain it averages between 75-85 - it is only higher if I am consciously doing intervals. I don't spin in an easy gear going uphill, I tend to find a gear that allows me to get up and over the hill yet have good resistance - not enough to hurt but it feels much better than spinning in a lower gear. The cadence function on my computer is quite helpful.

That being said, I rode with someone yesterday who suggested that I am still climbing in too high a gear, cadence notwithstanding, and that I (and my legs/knees) would find it useful to learn how to spin up with a lower gear. I hate dropping the gear because my speed really drops - but there isn't any prize waiting for me either way Since this is my year for learning better habits to prevent more injury...

[nscrbug]

See, I think I am the opposite of this... I would rather ride for a long period of time over a great distance than kill myself in the short term. However, I find I'm much better at maintaining a slower cadence (60 rpm maybe) in a tougher gear than a high spin with little to no power behind it.

Add me to this bunch, as well. I can pedal forever at 75rpm in my "sweet spot" gear, but get me over 90rpm in an easy gear for any length of time, and my legs are toast almost instantly. I just do not like the feeling of "flailing" my legs around and going nowhere...it actually hurts my knees to spin a higher cadence (which I know goes against all cycling logic). My average cadence on nearly every ride I have done so far this year, has been between 78-83...I very seldom will get to 90, and if I do, I certainly don't stay there for very long.

[Crankin]

My average cadence is always between 72 and 82. But, to get that cadence, I have to spend a good part of my ride at 90+. The difference is, that I can spin very fast going up a hill, unless it's miles long. I use pretty easy gears, too. I've had people on group rides ask me how I "trained" to climb like that (spinning), but I honestly couldn't tell them. It's natural for me. It took me 5 years to be able to lift myself out of the saddle to stand and I don't see any advantage to it. My legs hurt, my HR goes up, and my speed goes down. I also approach long or steep climbs with the philosophy of "just tick the pedals over." It didn't take me long to figure out how to use my gears to my advantage.
On my past few rides I've tried doing some intervals which involve increasing my cadence on the flats (or what there are of them around here). It's pretty hard for me to maintain a high cadence (90+) on a flat, but it does increase my speed.
At this point, it's probably not worth it for me. But knees are in great shape for someone getting near 60 and been riding for 10 years in hilly terrain.

[Catrin]

Interesting Crankin, perhaps spinning comes more naturally to some of us than others? I haven't learned how to stand on the pedals and pedal either - though I gather I will learn that at the mtn bike clinic. While I've only had my new Sigma computer since I got the new Gunnar, it seems my average cadence has been, so far, 80-81. Not many steep climbs though, and we don't have many long ones...

Interesting topic! I've found my knees tend to get cranky without a certain level of resistance on the pedals, but that doesn't mean I can't learn how to do this more efficiently and more knee-friendly.

[westtexas]

Interesting Crankin, perhaps spinning comes more naturally to some of us than others? I haven't learned how to stand on the pedals and pedal either - though I gather I will learn that at the mtn bike clinic.

I think this is spot on. I heard a guy friend say that some of us are spinners and some of us are pushers. I guess that means I'm a pusher.

I find it interesting as well that it's not natural for some to stand on the pedals. I do this all the time on hills. It never occurred to me that it has advantages/disadvantages. If my legs get tired powering up a hill (I also use my clipped in feet to raise the pedals instead of just pushing down with the foot) I stand and find in short bursts it really helps to maintain speed and relieves muscle tension. I mostly stand when I need that extra umph to get up the hill at the end (hills around here seem to drag on forever!)

Good thing we were all made differently or this would be a boring world!

[Crankin]

DH does this and can power up and over any climb. I can barely get out of the saddle. I think I would need a lot of strength training to do this well, but I am definitely a spinner. When my son was racing, he was a climber/spinner.... lots of endurance. He sucked at time trials and was an average sprinter. I surmise this is genetic.

[MollyJ]

Catrin, did you "always" spin at your average rate or build to it?

Having not measured my cadence, I am assuming I am average--spinning at too low of a rate, too geared up.

And from what I have read fast spinners (lance-fast) are probably born and developed young--due to "more" rapid firing muscle fibers as opposed to more slow firing fibers (more average, more typical).

West Texas, I always say I'm built for endurance not speed and I'm expecting that cadence will reveal just that.

Somewhere I read an article about testing cadence at low gears and high gears but can't remember where. I think it was to actually show us that higher spin rates at lower resistance would engender better times than lower spin rates at higher resistance.

But I am interested in the role of cadence making the averge cyclist (like me ) faster and more efficient.

Good thread.

[Koronin]

Add me to the list of can't stand and pedal at the same time yet. Well I haven't tried it on the mountain bike yet, but just flat out can't do it on the road bike. (Thinking it might be easier to learn on the mountain bike). I also am not a spinner. I have a pretty slow cadence. Unfortunately due to moving it's going to be another probably two weeks before I can get back on my bike again. One of the last times before we started moving that my husband and I went out on our bikes he wanted me to try an easier gear and a higher cadence, and my legs felt like jello within a minute or so of trying that. He rides at a good bit higher cadence than I do and doesn't understand why I ride at a much slower cadence.

[jelee1311]

Most of the time my cadence is around 90 and I feel fine with it. I think it also depends what I'm doing if, I'm doing a hill I spin a lot. My PT said for me to spin in a lower gear rather than hammer in a larger gear so I don't injure my achilles again. I still use my big gears but I build speed before I use them so I still have a high cadence. I'm not as sore if I do this. But everyone has what works for them

[Catrin]

Catrin, did you "always" spin at your average rate or build to it?

Molly - I don't think I actually qualify as a "spinner" - I think they tend to have a higher cadence than I do. My Cateye computer on my LHT (the only bike I had last year) does not have average cadence so am unsure what my average cadence was last season. I suspect it wasn't much different though, since I learned early on that it is better for our knees to have a cadence >75. With my 51 year old joints I do try to be kind to them since they aren't problem free anyway.

I focus on cadence mainly as a way to support my knees - and of course I use it also when I do intervals. Some people do better with higher cadence and easier gears, while for others it is the opposite. Since this is only my second year of riding I am still working this out