Minarets in Switzerland

[Trek420]

bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

.... except funding the church these days

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/te...a-steeple.html

[crazycanuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8417076.stm

[shootingstar]

what can they do? There's just verbal violence. In those streets there are no more local people. And the ones that do stay there, keep very very quiet.

There are some area's in Brussels the police won't even go any more. It's just too dangerous.

It hasn't always been like that, you know. When I lived in Gent there was a large population of muslims too. And there was never a problem, the muslim girls at my school never wore veils. It since the last 10 years or so that they became so radical.

The harassin' guys are just like...um...sorry, like some of the white guys I encountered on my way to work out to the suburbs last year. There are transit police (hired by the transit authority with legal powers to arrest and charge) floating around...at the stations..not on the bus. I felt sorry for a Sikh Translink bus driver (he wore a turban) who withstood the harrassment of 3 white folks, 2 guys and 1 gal who called him a raghead and refused to pay the bus fare. I tried to defend the guy, but the harrassers just turned at me with enormous hate in their eyes, to 'go back to where I was from'.

Well perhaps the Brussels police can learn alot from contacting the City of Toronto or City of Vancouver police or any of the major U.S. police departments who who have decades more experience than some of the European countries, of what hasn't or has worked on how the police can work more effectively with community leaders. There does have to customized public outreach programs at the grassroots level to specific groups in specific languages.

Such working partnerships are long-term, not shotgun (pardon the pun) whenever a 'problem' arises. And often this needs to be done with social worker/social work agency serving those community groups.

I'm saying this....because prior to cycling, for several years I was an active national board member for a major organization with a mandate on race relations ..coming from those of Chinese descent in Canada. Our organization worked at improving long-term relationships with Toronto police after perceived problems of crime, etc. among a tiny handful of folks in a large group of ordinary residents. The situation was being overblown in the local and national news.
_______________________________________________________________

The actions of a couple folks who are perceived as temporary workers or non-citizens, should NEVER be applied to the entire community. Yet this happens often without proper information. And do we know all the harrassing guys are temporary workers?
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To my understanding, here in Canada, 'naturalized' Canadian citizen...means someone born in Canada. One acquires Canadian citizenship automatically.

An immigrant (who has applied through the normal paperwork and check process, then approved by federal government) must apply for permant resident status ...to get their permanent resident card after they land in Canada. A landed immigrant and permanent resident must pay taxes just like Canadians.

Then to be eligible to apply for Canadian citizenship, they must be a resident in Canada at minimum for 3 years before applying. After applying, there is a test on applicant's knowledge about Canadian symbols, history, concepts. Before citizenship is officially granted.
_______________________________________________________________

thanks for latest BBC newslink, crazycanuck.

[tulip]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

[KnottedYet]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

"Naturalized" means the exact same thing in Canada: not born in Canada and you became a citizen later.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/concepts/de...ennete-eng.htm

[shootingstar]

I need to look again at definitions.

Easier to refer myself as a CBC (either it's a Canadian Broadcasting Corp., that is funded in part by federal Canadian govn't and with partial Canadian content or Canadian-born Chinese).

In the U.S., it's ABC (same parallels).

I'm not that negative about fundamentalism for Islam occurring in North America nor European. Simply because the next generation in order to survive, does end up assimilating over time, if their parents/older generations do not. Which several generations later...alot is forgotten for good, unfortunately. Every culture/language has good stuff worth keeping.

Assimilation forces are quite strong. And applicable for some (not all) women who might appear confined in a very patriarchical, fundamentalist family situation, but living in Europe or North America. At least the chances of her being heard for help outside of her community, are greater with less societal ostracization. It does take enormous personal courage and perseverance for these women to break free from tradition.

So for now, promoting exercise, if it includes cycling, for Muslim women in traditional garb, is still a good idea.

For papaver, would still lodge a complaint with local police...even if they do nothing it's on paper in their log. If they don't have the data over time, there's less evidence for them to be proactive.

[tc1]

Community outreach is nice and warm and fuzzy, but you should also call the law on the harassers. Community outreach also takes a long time, and works for those who are more inclined to be cooperative.

Organized rides through the problem areas. Make sure the rides are mixed gender, so that your message is that society supports your right to go where you wish. Bring the press.

In the US we have had trouble with fundamentalists of all persuasions. Most of the time (at least the stuff that makes the news) the authorities are far too hands-off regarding violations of the law. The best thing the US could do to solve our problem with this is to take away the tax-exempt status of all religious organizations, except for the funds used for charitable work. Missionary work is not charitable work, either.

[crazycanuck]

A long ramble on a hot summer afternoon

Here's something from today's paper regarding minarets in a local area (to me anyways)...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225811534888

The same thing occurred out in Camden,NSW-the locals didn't want an Islamic school (high school??) in thier country community & fought it in court by focusing on...local planning laws. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225720528855

Regarding large groups of (insert nationality/religious persuasion here) people harassing anyone really..it's not just women. The problem is...many cultures have created enclaves & reside only in that area for whatever reason. For example...many brits only live north of the river in Perth, many Koreans & South Africans live only on the North Shore in Auckland, many East Asian folks live in Millwoods in Edmonton..but I have no clue why.. These are friendly examples & no one cares who lives where and everyone gets along quite peachy keenly.

BUT...it's a different story in Europe & even parts of Sydney/Melbourne

The reason certain folk can't go into a certain area is because they're not part of that "culture".. Lawmakers etc are too afraid of upsetting anyone because it's not politically correct. What a bunch of bunk.

Read " Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali or look up Theo Van Gough...

I reckon it's the same situation in the (deep)Southern US in terms of African American/Caucasion relations. If you're X you don't go into X area..plain & simple. Then & possibly now.

Doesn't take a genius to relate it all together. Same same..

[Irulan]

Recommended reading.

Nine Parts of Desire:The Hidden World of Islamic Women by journalist Geraldine Brooks.

Link to Amazon reviews

Ms. Brooks has spent much time in Islamic countries and this is book is the result of being taking into families homes and interviewing Islamic women from many varied aspects of Islamic religion and culture. The stories are of Islamic women, their values and experience, both from the point of view of women who have taken up the veil of their own choice
and women who have moved away from it.

It seems like a lot of the posters here are running their opinions through their own cultural filters, and making what to me are somewhat inappropriate judgments on how other people choose to live their religious life or manage the religious life of their families. Just because you don't like it or don't approve of it, or think it's oppressive, doesn't make it bad or wrong. This could be said in general for any one of differing religious practice or political belief.... I am specifically speaking of wearing the veil or the culture of modesty. It blew my mind to read the interviews of women who have made this choice ( to wear the veil) independently, and why they did it, and why they like it.

back to lurking.

[lph]

Since I'm the one who brought up veils, I'll answer quickly. I have no doubt that I'm running things through my own cultural filters. I have no trouble with grown women choosing to wear veils of their own accord. More power to them. I do have trouble accepting that young girls are pushed to do so once they reach a certain age, and have modesty standards set for them that don't match those of their brothers, even when the country they live in doesn't require it in any way.

I'd like to read that book, it sounds interesting. But otherwise I'll back out quietly from this, I've already brought up more religion than this forum is maybe supposed to harbour Thanks for the calm discussion so far!

[OakLeaf]

As long as you'd be as happy and proud posting a picture on the Internet of your hypothetical 11(?)-year-old daughter shirtless as you were of your son ...

(Who is a great-looking kid and I wasn't offended by seeing him shirtless at all. But you get my point.)

[Tuckervill]

I dunno, I was pretty regularly topless in the swimming pool at 11. And, when all three of my sons were about that age, they didn't really want to go into the pool without a shirt on!

I don't mind seeing children in all states of dress and undress (in a motherly way!), but posting them on the internet (like some of my kids' male friends have pics of themselves on FB and Myspace with no shirts on) just gives the pervs more material than they need.

Karen

[lph]

As long as you'd be as happy and proud posting a picture on the Internet of your hypothetical 11(?)-year-old daughter shirtless as you were of your son ...

(Who is a great-looking kid and I wasn't offended by seeing him shirtless at all. But you get my point.)

Good point, OakLeaf. I do get it, but I don't think it's really a fair comparison. Wearing a top for women is in most countries (unfortunately, I'd say) not a question of choice. And as far as I've understood, wearing a veil is.

[crazycanuck]

Sorry to keep this thread going....I came across this from today's Independent
:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-1845103.html

[shootingstar]

Sorry to keep this thread going....I came across this from today's Independent
:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-1845103.html

So glad he is speaking out from within the community about what happened to his sister.

I firmly believe real change...comes from within a community. Article also shows real effort by police in U.K. to spot certain things even if there needs to be more reporting.

I also think that honor killing, like other terrible things ie. some Chinese girl babies given away at birth (or worse), to orphanages in China...happens but not as frequently as outsiders think. It's always the minority from within a community, who do the violent, other crap that makes the vast peace-loving majority look guilty/bad, etc.

And I'm glad they photographed the outspoken person who is speaking out against honour killing of his sister, to be someone wearing turban. What a person traditionally wears does not truly define his/her define thoughts, intellect and how to the person lives out their religious beliefs.

While lruan rightfully does say we put our cultural blinders and filters, on a differernt cultural /religious practice, this is my take:

I absolutely acknowledge my cultural filter and as someone who's mother is a picture bride where she never met her husband prior to marriage, I do have a personal opinion what can or cannot work within traditional confines. She was also extremely lucky to have married a guy who was/is kind to her, etc.

Earlier in this thread, CC gave article on some residents protesting construction of an Islamic high school in their Australian region. Now how on earth, is that any different than a traditional Mennonite high school in Ontario..('course it tends to out in the country)? I visited one with my conservative Mennonite friend (who wears a white cap on her hairbun and always, always wears dressses and dark pantyhose, even when its 90 degrees F). We dropped by a graduation picnic. The girls were playing baseball, in their dresses, pantyhose and running shoes.

My friend is only one of 3 who remained conservative Mennonite, other is an older sister. Remaining 5 siblinigs left the Mennonite fold voluntarily. And their children many are not religious at all....but because there is regular extended family contact for this Mennonite family, these non-Mennonite/non-religious children/next generation are respectful to Mennonites and others who are "different". I have met her nieces and nephews at various family functions. Forces of assimilation are powerful...over the generations in North America.

What I am trying to say how much personal, frequent exposure a person has to progressive plus traditional/fundamental folks of a particular community, really helps one learn that a fundamentalist-looking community, has many shades of grey/interpretations.

Otherwise some outsiders or people whose family members not from a culture/religion, etc. will never get over their "fear".