Minarets in Switzerland

[Tuckervill]

Angelus bells are a call to prayer; bells are rung on Sundays to call parishioners to worship, and some churches ring their tower bells as the Sanctus bells during the Mass. I don't think your local clergy would consider the bells and music "just for fun." Your non-Christian neighbors might not mind the bells - as I, a non-Muslim, enjoy hearing the adhan - but I can see how any of those might offend some people.

Wearing a veil is no more an "ostentatious trapping of religion" than wearing a shirt. It's a cultural standard of modesty.

I acknowledged before that secularism in Europe is very different from secularism in the USA. If churches aren't allowed steeples, then sorta fine - sorta, just because no one actually is building new churches, and fundamentalist Christians could safely enact such a law without it ever actually affecting them. But when different standards are applied depending on the race and religion of the people they're applied against, that's when I start to have a problem. And when immigrants and the children and grandchildren of immigrants are treated as "visitors" with rights subordinate to the native born - just as Mexican-Americans are here - that, I have a problem with, too.

Except, these are on the Baptist churches. There is one Catholic church in my town (20,000 people), and it's so far away from any residences or businesses that no one would hear the bells if they rang them (the church does have a bell on top of it, which I recall from my exploration of Catholicism in the '90s is used in certain rites and ceremonies). "Just for fun" was a little flip, but bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

[Trek420]

bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

.... except funding the church these days

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/te...a-steeple.html

[crazycanuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8417076.stm

[shootingstar]

I need to look again at definitions.

Easier to refer myself as a CBC (either it's a Canadian Broadcasting Corp., that is funded in part by federal Canadian govn't and with partial Canadian content or Canadian-born Chinese).

In the U.S., it's ABC (same parallels).

I'm not that negative about fundamentalism for Islam occurring in North America nor European. Simply because the next generation in order to survive, does end up assimilating over time, if their parents/older generations do not. Which several generations later...alot is forgotten for good, unfortunately. Every culture/language has good stuff worth keeping.

Assimilation forces are quite strong. And applicable for some (not all) women who might appear confined in a very patriarchical, fundamentalist family situation, but living in Europe or North America. At least the chances of her being heard for help outside of her community, are greater with less societal ostracization. It does take enormous personal courage and perseverance for these women to break free from tradition.

So for now, promoting exercise, if it includes cycling, for Muslim women in traditional garb, is still a good idea.

For papaver, would still lodge a complaint with local police...even if they do nothing it's on paper in their log. If they don't have the data over time, there's less evidence for them to be proactive.

[tc1]

Community outreach is nice and warm and fuzzy, but you should also call the law on the harassers. Community outreach also takes a long time, and works for those who are more inclined to be cooperative.

Organized rides through the problem areas. Make sure the rides are mixed gender, so that your message is that society supports your right to go where you wish. Bring the press.

In the US we have had trouble with fundamentalists of all persuasions. Most of the time (at least the stuff that makes the news) the authorities are far too hands-off regarding violations of the law. The best thing the US could do to solve our problem with this is to take away the tax-exempt status of all religious organizations, except for the funds used for charitable work. Missionary work is not charitable work, either.

[crazycanuck]

A long ramble on a hot summer afternoon

Here's something from today's paper regarding minarets in a local area (to me anyways)...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225811534888

The same thing occurred out in Camden,NSW-the locals didn't want an Islamic school (high school??) in thier country community & fought it in court by focusing on...local planning laws. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225720528855

Regarding large groups of (insert nationality/religious persuasion here) people harassing anyone really..it's not just women. The problem is...many cultures have created enclaves & reside only in that area for whatever reason. For example...many brits only live north of the river in Perth, many Koreans & South Africans live only on the North Shore in Auckland, many East Asian folks live in Millwoods in Edmonton..but I have no clue why.. These are friendly examples & no one cares who lives where and everyone gets along quite peachy keenly.

BUT...it's a different story in Europe & even parts of Sydney/Melbourne

The reason certain folk can't go into a certain area is because they're not part of that "culture".. Lawmakers etc are too afraid of upsetting anyone because it's not politically correct. What a bunch of bunk.

Read " Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali or look up Theo Van Gough...

I reckon it's the same situation in the (deep)Southern US in terms of African American/Caucasion relations. If you're X you don't go into X area..plain & simple. Then & possibly now.

Doesn't take a genius to relate it all together. Same same..

[Irulan]

Recommended reading.

Nine Parts of Desire:The Hidden World of Islamic Women by journalist Geraldine Brooks.

Link to Amazon reviews

Ms. Brooks has spent much time in Islamic countries and this is book is the result of being taking into families homes and interviewing Islamic women from many varied aspects of Islamic religion and culture. The stories are of Islamic women, their values and experience, both from the point of view of women who have taken up the veil of their own choice
and women who have moved away from it.

It seems like a lot of the posters here are running their opinions through their own cultural filters, and making what to me are somewhat inappropriate judgments on how other people choose to live their religious life or manage the religious life of their families. Just because you don't like it or don't approve of it, or think it's oppressive, doesn't make it bad or wrong. This could be said in general for any one of differing religious practice or political belief.... I am specifically speaking of wearing the veil or the culture of modesty. It blew my mind to read the interviews of women who have made this choice ( to wear the veil) independently, and why they did it, and why they like it.

back to lurking.

[lph]

Since I'm the one who brought up veils, I'll answer quickly. I have no doubt that I'm running things through my own cultural filters. I have no trouble with grown women choosing to wear veils of their own accord. More power to them. I do have trouble accepting that young girls are pushed to do so once they reach a certain age, and have modesty standards set for them that don't match those of their brothers, even when the country they live in doesn't require it in any way.

I'd like to read that book, it sounds interesting. But otherwise I'll back out quietly from this, I've already brought up more religion than this forum is maybe supposed to harbour Thanks for the calm discussion so far!

[OakLeaf]

As long as you'd be as happy and proud posting a picture on the Internet of your hypothetical 11(?)-year-old daughter shirtless as you were of your son ...

(Who is a great-looking kid and I wasn't offended by seeing him shirtless at all. But you get my point.)