The Swine Flu Shot a Waste of Time!

[KnottedYet]

You shouldn't get two doses of Flu Mist on the same day - because its live attenuated virus (In injectable flu vaccines the virus is flat out dead. Flu mist is deactivated virus, but is still alive. No- it won't give you the flu, but it can cause some mild symptoms). Otherwise its perfectly safe to get many vaccinations at the same time. Normal season flu vaccine always carries several strains.

My clinic's communicable diseases docs say we have to wait 30 days between mists. Which is a bummer for me, because I've had the real-deal flu three times and it really hits me hard. One of my patients had swine flu a couple weeks ago, and said he's not been that sick in at least 10 years. I have to wait another 2 weeks before I can get the swine flu mist, and believe me I will get that vaccine! Flu is no fun for me, and I really don't want to be incubating the bugger and pass it on to any of my patients! (or my kid, or my parents, or my friends, or the folks on my bus, or my neighbors, or...)

[Eden]

My clinic's communicable diseases docs say we have to wait 30 days between mists. Which is a bummer for me, because I've had the real-deal flu three times and it really hits me hard.

You can still get injectable vaccine - Our employee health service was giving Flu Mist for H1N1 and regular injectable (dead) seasonal flu vaccines on the same day. Just not another dose of of live attenuated virus.

They've even gone as far as to not allow Flu Mist for people who work with *really* vulnerable populations - so you're not allowed live vaccines at all if you work with patients who have compromised immune systems. I think rehab and people who work with bone marrow transplant kids were included in that. I think they had a very small supply of injectable H1N1 for those folks.

[katluvr]

I have been reading this thread with interest and waiting to "butt" in.
I am a healthcare provider. I no longer provide direct care to patients.
I do not plan to get the flu shot. I have not in the past, even when providing direct patient care. It is my personal preference.
I also feel that I am leaving that dose to someone whom may need/want it.

I am not worried about getting it or passing it. (Partly in that I don't have direct interactions with patients or the communinity in large).

I wash my hands. I try to touch very little. I avoid hugging people (and all that kissing on the check). I recently flew and seemed to survive. So there are ways to protect yourself if you chose not to get the vaccine. I do not think I am putting others at risk of my spreading the virus. Maybe that is selfish of me. Now if I had another job, family or community interactions it may be different.

K

[Eden]

In the end it is certainly your choice. Until I started working at a children's hospital I had neither ever had the flu vaccine or the flu and felt very much like you. As I had never had the flu I always figured that it was better for me to leave that dose for someone who really needed it, as it always seems to be in such short supply.

At this job I do feel very obligated to protect the patients, even if my chances of even getting the flu are pretty low.

I do however feel that if you choose not to get a vaccine (not just flu, but any vaccine) you should be aware of exactly what you are doing. Just because you are not part of a vulnerable population doesn't mean that you won't be part of the larger problem *if* you do get sick.

Really - read the article in Wired, its very well written.

[katluvr]

Eden,
I get "Wired".
I did read it.
And I support vaccines. I am a pediatric critical care nurse and ARNP.
IMO the Flu vaccine is a bit different. And if I still did direct care with the kiddo's my thought framework maybe be different that it is today.
I feel for those that are feeling pressured to have the season and H1N1 vaccines. I am fortunate not to be pressured.
Do I support my parents (in their 70's) to get it...Absolutely!

As with many things, there are many sides to this story. Many "truths" and "myths" out there.

K

[indigoiis]

A 12 year old girl died in RI this week from H1N1. She was apparently healthy in all respects - soccer player, normal weight and height... didn't feel well last Friday and was dead by Monday.

It has certainly changed my thinking about the whole thing... it scares the poop out of me to think a healthy person with no other issues can die from it. I have a sixteen year old daughter and I just can't imagine what that mother is feeling right now. We are doing everything (handwashing, etc.) to prevent getting it but both of us are in areas where we can be exposed every day. We also take the bus. It's freaking me out just a little!

[Eden]

Eden,
I get "Wired".
I did read it.
And I support vaccines. I am a pediatric critical care nurse and ARNP.
IMO the Flu vaccine is a bit different. And if I still did direct care with the kiddo's my thought framework maybe be different that it is today.
I feel for those that are feeling pressured to have the season and H1N1 vaccines. I am fortunate not to be pressured.
Do I support my parents (in their 70's) to get it...Absolutely!

As with many things, there are many sides to this story. Many "truths" and "myths" out there.

K

If i didn't work with kids I might be more inclined to skip it - but then I've never had the flu.....

If I were like some posters and I had the flu each year (or even some years) - even if I didn't get very ill, I'd definitely get the vaccine, even without the sick kids factor. My point is only that it is not all about *you* - that anyone who does get the flu probably passes it on and someone on down the line may have a very bad outcome. Even if you get a mild case, even if being sick for a few weeks doesn't affect you that much, it could be very different for the next guy.

The risks to me are minimal - I've never had a bad reaction to a vaccine. I've never had Guillaume-Barre and I don't have an allergy to eggs or feathers. I think it is my responsibility to protect the community when I'm given the opportunity. Could it be that I won't ever get the flu or pass it on even if not vaccinated? Maybe so, but why take that chance.

I also think that we've been so successful at eradicating and treating some diseases that we've become complacent about how dangerous that they can be. Flu epidemics in the past killed millions. Just because we have it under control right now, doesn't mean it will stay that way. If we become complacent about prevention we could have a new epidemic on our hands. There have already been resurgences of diseases that were nearly gone - like measles and whooping cough.

[OakLeaf]

Haemophilus influenzae (the agent that causes Hib meningitis) does not cause influenza, despite its name.

I'm not at all opposed to vaccines in principle.

I did read the Wired piece, before you linked to it actually.

I have serious reservations about universal vaccination for a disease with a low rate of complications.

When there are complications, of course it's tragic for the individuals involved. I'm not dismissing that at all. But the fact remains that the rate of complications for seasonal flu is very low, and at this preliminary stage they're not finding H1N1 to be significantly different, despite the initial fears.

I referenced the book Sway in the thread about cancer screenings. It's a laypersons' book, but very well documented, and I highly recommend it. (The book has nothing to do with medical decisionmaking specifically, but rather - in part - with how our minds are hard-wired to choose a known harm in order to avoid a remote risk.)

[Tuckervill]

Isn't it true that people who die from swine flu have actually succumbed to much more serious complications, such as pneumonia, which they wouldn't have been susceptible to had they not contracted swine flu?

Also, I have to think that when the last flu pandemics came through that there was much less technology, knowledge and practice that, now that we have them, are designed to prevent mass deaths. Oh, that's a terrible sentence...but we wash our hands now and use the hand sanitizer and have greater awareness and air filtration systems, etc. We have antivirals and such, that they didn't have before? Penicillin for the pneumonia, etc.

Also, someone said that you can spread the virus before you develop symptoms. Isn't that true whether you're vaccinated or not? If the virus exists on your hands or clothing and you pass them on to your child who then gets the flu, is there really anything you can do about that? Not really, except keep your hands washed.

Them's my thoughts. Still not lining up for the shot.

Karen

[Eden]

Directly from the CDC.
The period when an infected person is contagious depends on the age and health of the person. Studies show that most healthy adults may be able to infect others from 1 day prior to becoming sick and for 5-7 days after they first develop symptoms. Some young children and people with weakened immune systems may be contagious for longer than a week.

So yes, you are contagious before you get symptoms.

Maybe only 36,000 people die from the flu each year (in the US)... but I'm sure that if you are one of the loved ones of one of those people the fact that its not that many people doesn't really interest you...

[KnottedYet]

I only had flu once before I worked with patients.
I didn't start getting flu vaccinations until I caught flu 2 more times (most likely from patients).

Today while heading out for lunch I saw a desperately ill flu patient come into the clinic, on her way to the communicable disease doctors. I will confess, I held my breath as I walked past... and didn't breathe again until I was outside. Silly reaction, but I couldn't help it.

Flu isn't silly. People make comments in the newspaper about how ridiculous all the precautions are. "Look how silly this is, we all were so careful and there wasn't a deadly epidemic this spring, so this was all an exercise in futility. I'm not doing it anymore." Ummm... that's a sign of success, not futility! It's like a parent being frustrated over changing diapers. "Look how silly this is, I changed my kid's diaper every two hours and he didn't get the diaper rash everyone said he might get, so this was all an exercise in futility. I'm not doing it anymore."

The H1N1 vaccine is about 70% effective. Anyone born after the 1950's when we last had an H1N1 has NO immunity. It's a huge pool of virus-breeders ready to saturate the population with icky boogers. The chance of an immunocompromised person contacting someone born after the 1950's is pretty darn high, and if 100% of those folks are potential virus bags, life gets risky for them. Even if only 70% become immune, that's 70% fewer human petri dishes putting other folks at risk.

Frankly, ladies, I don't give a rip if you get swine flu or not. Just don't spread it to anyone else.

So: don't leave your house, don't handle any paper money, don't flush your toilet, don't open your windows... we'll let you know when the rest of us have antibodies and are no longer at risk of you being a human cootie factory shedding live virus from every pore and orifice.

[kmehrzad]

My daughter who is finishing a residency program will be visiting several hospitals in the coming months so I encouraged her to get a seasonal flu shot. She got it yesterday morning and after lunch started feeling nauseous. Early this morning she was vomiting and had two episodes of extreme stomach spasms that made it difficult for her to breathe. She called me in the early hours (I'm in VA and she's in FL) and I told her to call 911 but she was reluctant to do so thinking things would calm down and they did after about 1/2 hr.
She called the nurse who administered the shot and was instructed to call the CDC and report her reaction. A rep from the CDC said that some people are exhibiting breathing problems, allergic reactions, hives, etc. My daughter was told that she probably shouldn't receive seasonal flu shots in the future due to her reaction.

[Tuckervill]

Directly from the CDC.
The period when an infected person is contagious depends on the age and health of the person. Studies show that most healthy adults may be able to infect others from 1 day prior to becoming sick and for 5-7 days after they first develop symptoms. Some young children and people with weakened immune systems may be contagious for longer than a week.

So yes, you are contagious before you get symptoms.

So I'm thinking about this period of time right here, when only a fraction of people have been vax'd and there is not enough vaccine to go around. Even if I plan on getting the vaccine in the future when it's available to such as I (I am certain I won't be part of any eligible group until 2010.), there is nothing I can do about spreading the germ or not, whether I have natural immunity and never get symptoms, or right up until the moment I do get symptoms, to prevent someone else from getting it from me.

So why even bring that up in the argument? As if it impugnes the people who are not inclined to get the shot in the first place, when in fact, it applies to everyone vaccinated, post-flu and well again, or not vaccinated at all. It is irrelevant.

I CANNOT get the vaccine, so there's no point in me doing anything different except be mindful of my sanitary practices. The suggestion that I should stay inside is ridiculous and unnecessary.

Karen

[Eden]

Knot you make me smile!

There are definitely people who should *not* be vaccinated. Anyone who has had a bad reaction to a vaccine, is allergic to eggs/poultry products, some people with certain immune problems.

That is exactly why it is more important to be vaccinated if you can be.... protect the people who are most vulnerable by not getting sick yourself.

[KnottedYet]

Knot you make me smile!

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. But only a little...