How much do looks define your self-image?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Wow, a lot of insightful, and beautiful, input on this thread. What an inspiration to read all this!

I guess we ALL struggle with wanting to feel beautiful or attractive both inside and outside, I am not immune to sometimes feeling physically unappealing in various ways either.
But my mother (who died 2 years ago) unfortunately led her life imprisoned by a sense of the all-important physical appearance. She was a great natural beauty. And yet, despite being born more 'beautiful' than 99.9% of other women, she constantly worried and fretted about her appearance and whether others would think she was physically beautiful- it deeply affected her whole life in various sad ways. Because her appearance was the most important aspect in how she felt about herself, she naturally thought that others felt the very same way in how they perceived her.
I suspect she would have successfully instilled the very same attitude in me if she weren't usually too busy fussing over her appearance to take the time to 'train' me.
The only good part of all this was that I was able to see in her life the consequences of this obsession about looks, and thus watch for the danger signs in myself.

[tribogota]

Interesting thread, I teach gender and sexuality studies, so I think about these things frequently to help my students think about them. Yes, society does care and make us care up and we contribute by caring too. But, I actually think humans are less affected by the appearance thing than they think, something else makes them "approve" or "disapprove" of appearances. Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....
Didn't mean to sound so down, but wanted to contribute that the looks thing doesn't define a whole lot, a lot of the time.

[Biciclista]

Interesting thread, I teach gender and sexuality studies, so I think about these things frequently to help my students think about them. Yes, society does care and make us care up and we contribute by caring too. But, I actually think humans are less affected by the appearance thing than they think, something else makes them "approve" or "disapprove" of appearances. Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....
Didn't mean to sound so down, but wanted to contribute that the looks thing doesn't define a whole lot, a lot of the time.

wow, this took guts to say. I was talking to a gorgeous young woman the other day. She told me she almost never gets asked on dates. (i told my son!!) - that Seattle is considered a cold town, where guys don't try to date gals, to give him a little edge.

I hope you run into a warm and kind soul mate soon.

[polly4711]

1. lph--- you always have great threads/input to say. i completely agree about the if you have a loving family, etc.... then you have succeded in life.
2. I agree with all of the men/women on here.
3. I am 22, my mom already gave me wrinkle cream.... my wrinkles are my smile lines.... darn it.. i got wrinkles because i smiled... isn'nt that a good thing?
4. i've learned that i am who i am.

anyhoo... could go on a long time... better complete homework!

[Zen]

Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....

I could have written that myself (except for that triathlon thing)
I think it's been four years since I had a date.
I'm still quite happy though, thank you.

[lph]

I really appreciate everybody's replies. Thanks for the input. I'm certainly not trying to belittle anybody's wish to feel attractive, I think we all do, just doodling around with the idea of what goes into being attractive. Some random thoughts:

are men more relaxed about their looks, or is this just not manly to admit you care? you can tell a male friend (not all, I guess, but some, in the right situation) that they could use a haircut, or should lose some weight - saying the same thing to a woman is mostly considered a huge faux pas. Not to mention a mistaken pregnancy

would you be offended by someone saying that at 50 you're not as cute, or trusting as when you were 20?

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?

- late, gotta go sleep

[Mr. Bloom]

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?

In the 80's/90's, I was at one point the youngest Senior VP and then the youngest Executive VP in a company with 5,000 employees. BUT, the clerical folks remembered me when I was a trainee...and still thought of me as that young kid.

Now, my hair is greying and it's sliding from from the top of my head to the back of my shoulders...

Yes, I'm making the transition kicking and screaming because what is see is not how I feel. SO, I guess I need to focus on making how I feel come out in other ways

However, I have to admit...I was never "cool" or "hot" when I was 20 and was rarely comfortable in my skin. But I had a confidence that pushed me past that and that's what got me multiple job offers when I graduated.

Without question, just basic things that define female vs. male bodies, do form our self-image ..for the rest of our lives. It determines how people treat us, female vs. male.

• as infants, the genders look essentially the same (except for one key anatomical difference)
• as we mature, we start looking very different
• as we age, we essentially start looking alike again (except for one key anatomical difference)
• so let's age gracefully

[shootingstar]

[*]as we age, we essentially start looking alike again (except for one key anatomical difference)[*]so let's age gracefully[/LIST]

You better be careful how you tell Silver on the lst point above.

[Grog]

I had written a long message about my teenage years but I've decided to chop it in favour of this more interesting anecdote:

I worked on tv for a bit, in a minor variety show. Before every show the make up artist would cake us up (men and women, although women would get icing on top of the cake). Kinda fun (I never wear any on my own). One of the make up artist that worked with the show then told me of her work with a particular female news anchor whom, she said, was obsessed with her looks to a pathological point. She controlled her image to the extreme. But can you imagine being on display like that all the time? The pressure on those women is enormous, and they're often relegated to minor positions as soon as they start to age.

In a similar vein: the French channel of Canada's national television had this woman who happens to be a trained meteorologist and a very good teacher about weather issues as the "weather woman." She was hired in 1980 and worked on the most important news show of the day until, in 1995, she was mysteriously relegated to minor shows. Yes, she has aged, and, yes, she is about 50% heavier than the chicks who present the weather on the other channels. Well I'm not exactly sure what happened, but I think she filed a formal complaint, and she won her position back. I was really grateful that she fought for this. She is, by far, the most competent for the job, and proved that looks did not always rule.

Bottom line: If you have a female news anchor that you like, send notes to the station where she works on a regular basis to say how much you appreciate her work.

[Zen]

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?

Only if that means just changing out bodies.
This girl is obviously an empty headed vessel but much thinner, no spider veins, flat belly and perky breasts.
But not very entertaining at lunch.

This woman, on the other hand, is a hoot and knows stuff.

And she has more money
Who cares that the boobs are a 36 long?

[teigyr]

This makes me laugh. I am from Southern Calif and when I turned 18, my friend and I went to Calgary. This was in the 80's and you wouldn't believe how shunned we were because we weren't blonde and tanned!!! I am red-haired and freckled and I guess I didn't fit the stereotype.

Way back then, I turned into this punk purple-haired pseudo-mohawk (curly hair doesn't do mohawks so well unless you do extreme measures) kind of person. I didn't/don't like "competing" with what I should be so I went the other way. I still don't care, so much, but there are times I wish I fit into the cute category.

When I moved to Seattle and was recently divorced, I had to get braces. I remember being at a company function with new braces and not being able to eat (food in my braces!) or speak without spitting on someone. Seattle isn't so good for dating either, I agree with Biciclista's story. When I first met and went out with DH, I ended up spitting water on him when we went out to dinner because I had never eaten in public with braces. He was good with it. I was over 40 at the time too, which is what made the braces all the more insulting.

So I guess looks DO matter but I pretend like they don't. I'm getting older and my body doesn't behave like it used to. I do different stuff with my hair but then again I've always done that. I like makeup because it is fun but I have to admit that now I'm getting anti-aging moisturizers too. It isn't so much looks I mind anymore, it's the Aging Process. It's rude. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't fit into the "cute" category. Individuality has its rewards and the right person appreciates you for who you are instead of what you look like.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

OMG Zen....yer killin' me here!!

[Crankin]

I didn't reply to this thread earlier, because I wanted to think about it. And yes, I do care about how I look. Am I vain? Maybe. Am I hot? I don't think so and I don't care, as long as I am hot to my husband . I really don't like the idea of looking "old." I guess I am lucky that everyone, on both sides of my family age well. I like wearing make up and I like looking nice in clothes, although more of my $ has been spent on sports oriented stuff lately... I do my nails and toenails, but I do this myself.
Part of looking good for me is tied up in being fit and healthy. It's really important to me. I see so many people my age resigned to obesity and ill health as a natural consequence of aging, including most of my friends. Fitness takes work and I find that most of the people I know don't want to do that kind of work.
I do a lot to keep my hair looking good, because it is awful. For years I permed it, and then I cut it all off. Now I want nice, straight chin length hair. I'm almost there, but it takes straightening, highlights, and learning how to use a flat iron to make it look the way I want it to. I'm getting some gray around the temples, so next time, more highlights.
I got Invisalign braces 4 years ago to fix the mistakes that my first set of braces didn't do 40 years ago. I was very self conscious of my teeth. Personally, I don't care that I have small b00bs, but I wish I looked better in certain clothing styles. I would never get implants, but I am friends with certain enhancing bra styles. I remember when my mom went from an A to a C as she aged, and she hated it!
I admit, I come from a culture where women "worked" at looking good. I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband takes the same pride in his appearance and is just as interested in buying clothes, etc. He even has more shoes than me...

[shootingstar]

Hey, Grog had no idea about the tv episodes. How interesting.

Zen, where did you get that tiara?
Speaking of which, one of my closest female friends for about 20 years, before she and I naturally parted ways, was in a Miss Canada beauty pageant. (Yea, it's true, some of the snippy stuff backstage. Waste of time.) Long after that event (which she didn't win and didn't care to because she was caught up in her university studies), she was with a bunch research colleagues in a downtown teaching hospital in Toronto where she did her work. There was a parade outside which included a Miss Canada regally in some car/float.... Her research colleagues hooted and mocked, made minor jokes.

She absolutely dared not to reveal that she was in the pageant once upon a time. She really wanted to do well on her pharmacology thesis based on her brainpower and work.

She also had 2 older sisters who were genuinely nice individuals...and they did each do part-time modelling. Last I heard one of them died of breast cancer recently.

In some sort of curious way, I would be interested in knowing/meeting her daughters..if they took upon their mother's need to constantly look good. One of them would be same age as my niece....a great young woman (can't you tell I'm a proud aunt?), whom I've never seen wear makeup at any dressy party event so far. I'm glad...no reason..she's with family.

Same for my partner's daughter. I'm secretly glad she drags in to visit us, looking dishevelled at times, but bohemian chic. I've only seen her wear makeup once after all these years. As soon my partner told me she was exploring feminist theories etc. when she was 16, I thought: GOOD!!!!! that's when eureka starts. Hopefully.

[Jolt]

To answer the original question, not a whole lot. I don't spend much time thinking about how I look, or doing things like makeup, keeping up with the latest fashions etc. (not that there's anything wrong with doing those things within reason). Just not really interested, and for me a lot of that stuff is just a pain so I only pay a lot of attention to it when I really need to (like certain professional situations or special occasions). I do like to look healthy, but that comes naturally from being active and eating reasonably well so it's not something I find myself thinking much about.