How much do looks define your self-image?

[Crankin]

Just playing the devil's advocate, but, when did wearing make up equate with being or not being a feminist? Why do people think that caring about looks is evil?
Anyone who knows me (male or female) would say that I am pretty outspoken about gender role stuff and I don't put up with any c*ap from anyone. Heck, I was even the mom who didn't feel one shred of guilt about working.
And yes, I appreciate being with cyclists more than other types. Where else can you discuss bodily functions, while being totally sweaty, dressed in lycra? And, nobody cares! But, I still like make up!

[Tuckervill]

There's something about the beauty of the anonymity of the Internet.

lol +1!

[Aggie_Ama]

Just playing the devil's advocate, but, when did wearing make up equate with being or not being a feminist? Why do people think that caring about looks is evil?
Anyone who knows me (male or female) would say that I am pretty outspoken about gender role stuff and I don't put up with any c*ap from anyone. Heck, I was even the mom who didn't feel one shred of guilt about working.
And yes, I appreciate being with cyclists more than other types. Where else can you discuss bodily functions, while being totally sweaty, dressed in lycra? And, nobody cares! But, I still like make up!

I like my makeup too! As I said earlier- foundation, eyeshadow, eyeliner and mascara every day. Sometimes lipstick but mostly I forget it wore off. If I can find my blush brush I will wear it but often not. Until I started reading TE I didn't know makeup was so shunned? The only thing in my makeup that is even noticeable is the eyeliner/mascara but I don't put it on thick. It is probably most noticeable to me because I have blond lashes and I think I look completely different without makeup on.

[roadie gal]

I was the short, fat, scraggly haired kid with braces and glasses... with 2 beautiful sisters. Let me tell you, that screws up your self image forever. I know that I'm no longer that teenager. I have a lot more self confidence and I KNOW I look better now and I'm healthier than I've ever been. BUT deep down, I'm still that lonely kid. I think your early self image stays with you throughout your life. You aren't necessarily bound by it, but it's there.

BTW, I turned 50 last month. I've been looking forward to it. There's something magical about a half century. But it does make you look back and think "What have I done with that half century?" I don't feel old. It's hard to describe the exact feeling.

[Biciclista]

When I was a small child, for a while I was a prodigy at guessing ages. My mother would bring me into a party, or introduce me to guests and tell me to guess their ages. I could see the lines and signs of age. I used to upset some women because my guesses were very good. I thought 50 was very old.
So when I actually hit 50 myself, I could remember my childish reactions to 50 year old faces and shudder.
Sadly, i lost the ability to guess ages accurately by the time I was a teenager and now I can hardly do it at all.

[lph]

I took the day off and went xc skiing today (hooray for working for the Norwegian government ), and this thread kept rolling around in my mind.

I don't think we'll ever get away from wanting to be attractive, that's a fairly basic urge, and looks will always play some role in that no matter who stellar your personality is, but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa. Some people genuinely look younger than their years - off the top of my head I can think of Leonardo DiCaprio and Christina Ricci, they both have big eyes and "childlike" faces. My father-in-law is another, he has a full head of hair, few wrinkles and a boyish face with big eyes, and will always look younger than he is.

But most times I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by saying that someone "looks young" when what we mean is that they look good, or fit, or active.

I get told that sometimes, that I don't look like I'm almost 40. That's not really a compliment I appreciate that much, even though it's meant well. I don't look 30 or 35, I have the grey hair and the wrinkles to prove it - I look like a fit 40-year-old. I feel like saying - uh, no, this is what active 40-yr.old women look like. I have a colleague too who is a good example of this. He's extremely fit and 63 years old. He has skiied, biked and kayaked his whole life, and has an amazing body to show for it (I've seen most of it in the sauna ), and I'd be tempted to say that he doesn't look a day over 50, but that's not right. He looks like an extremely fit 63-yr.old. That is what extremely fit 63-yr.olds look like, and hurray for that!

Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy...

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

[Biciclista]

.


Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy...

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

Yeah, really. How many young women come on here freaked out that they might gain muscles in their legs and then won't bike because of it!

[jobob]

I had a low self-image when I was younger.

Nowadays it shocks me a bit when I see myself in the mirror and I think I look pretty darn good

[lph]

Mebbe you were busy changing a flat

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

This came out a little wrong. No offense to the 20-yr. olds smart enough to be on this board - I just wasn't a particularly nice, or smart, or happy one.

[jobob]

I know what you mean. Most miserable time of my life, alas. Wish I could get a do-over.

[OakLeaf]

What lph said. I could've written a lot of that, except not nearly so eloquently! (And except for the fact that I loved my muscles when I was 18, too.)

I would expand a little by saying that there's a huge difference between "looks don't matter" vs. "the type of looks that matter to me are maybe a little different from what I perceive as mattering to the mainstream media." An enormous difference.

Like a lot of you, maybe most women, much of my self-image comes from cruel, ugly things my parents and peers told me when I was a pre-adolescent. So in that way, you could say that looks don't define my self image - I feel just as fat at 122 lbs as I did at 150.

I never learned to put on makeup, and there are times (pretty infrequent) when I feel "naked" without it, but in general I don't miss it. I'm not enormously concerned about my hair, and I'm not terribly motivated to cover my grey; but six months of stupendously awful haircuts (two winters in a row) really added up to make me feel unattractive.

When I look at my chest in the mirror, I don't care that I don't see large firm b00bs. But I do care that I can make my pecs dance. The scars on my legs, well, I'd be happier not to have them, but if I catch a glimpse of defined muscles in the mirror when I'm putting on pantyhose, that does give me an ego boost. I'm okay with my cyclist's tan (white shoulders, white upper thighs, raccoon eyes), but I do feel pasty and pudgy when I have no tan at all (and I will cop to putting sunblock on my nose in a pretty futile attempt to keep it close to the same color as my cheeks at least ). I'm not shy about walking into stores in my cycling shorts. But I'd change before I went to the opera.


I read something a few years back that I just now remembered and I may not be describing this exactly right, but I know I have the gist of it. Some researchers put male and female subjects through exercise programs. All of the participants lost weight and got stronger. But if the women's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they were stronger and more muscular; if the men's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they'd lost weight. The researchers interpreted this as indicating that the non-stereotypical values mattered more to each gender; but I thought it was something else.

For me, and for most women, my self-image about my weight is immutable. I know in my heart that I am fat (and yah, I know, I'm sure years of therapy could help me with that, but honestly I have more important things to deal with in therapy ). No amount of weight loss will make me feel not-fat. Being strong and muscular, on the other hand - because it's something I received no messages about as a child - I can see the changes in my body honestly, without all the filters and "tapes." I can own the results of the work I've done and be happy about it. My guess is that it's the same for men - their idea of whether they're strong or weak is instilled as a value judgment in childhood and difficult to change, whereas they can see themselves more objectively as fat or thin.

[Biciclista]

This was just handed to me; it's a real piece of history:


Office instruction - Aero-Space Division Secretarial Standard No. 901
June 28, 1961


Personal Appearance

An attractive appearance is important and can be achieved by using intelligence in the selection and care of clothes and the use of proper makeup.

Clothing should be selected which is suitable, not only for the job itself, but the work area as well. A girl whose work requires physical effort should obviously select clothes which are both attractive and comfortable. Low-cut dresses are never appropriate and excuses such as “dates” or “hot weather” will not make them correct.

REMINDERS

1. Regardless of how attractive your clothing may be when new, they must be kept clean and well pressed. A fastidious person knows that good grooming includes cleanliness both in her person and her garments.
2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.
3. Extreme hairdos should be avoided. Gaudy flowers and ornaments are not appropriate for the office.
4. Heavy makeup attracts attention but not always admiration.


Don’t risk embarrassment to either your employer or yourself. Invariably, the girl who is most admired by her fellow employees is well groomed but tailored, and has learned the importance of being properly dressed and immaculate in her appearance. She never arrives at work with her hair in curlers and without makeup, thereby creating the impression that the effort to be “ready for her job” is just too great. She knows that good mental and physical health are important in order to be attractive.

She never uses personal appearance as a substitute for intelligence by knows that being well groomed is part of her job.

[Crankin]

I definitely agree; my idea of looking good is looking fit (I think I tried to say that before). And what lph said about looking good for one's age vs. looking younger is right on. I look good for 55. Do I look 40? I don't think so. I want to say to my friends who say they "can't do what I do" that this is what a fit 55 year looks like. Come see my cycling friends.
You know, Oakleaf, I think that I was a case of your thinking, but in reverse. I was always thin and then in my twenties, I gained about 25 pounds. I lost it and kept it off until I was in my mid forties (well I didn't gain as much). Both times, I was slow to accept the fact that I needed to do something, because I saw myself as a thin person. In fact the second time, I saw myself as a fit, thin person, even though I was barely going through the motions at the gym. The first time my husband took me out on the bike, I almost fainted. I still thought I was fit and thin until I was gasping for breath going up a teeny hill. Then I got pissed at myself and started on the right track to getting fit again.
That won't happen again.

[Mr. Bloom]

but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa.

Ironically, as I was at the peak of my '08 fitness...and a few pounds lighter, I looked older due to the lines that formed in my face as the 'jowl fat' was burned off...

[Crankin]

There was just a study verifying that phenomena, Mr. S. Twins who weighed more, looked younger, particularly in the area of wrinkles.
One of the negatives of maintaining a lower weight has been the prominence of laugh lines. Both my mom and dad had (have for my dad) them. And they both maintained a healthy weight into older age. My dad is almost 84 and pretty trim. Yet, he does no exercise. I always thought my mom's laugh lines were from too much sun, after years on the Cape and living in FL and AZ. But, they got worse as she became thinner.
Still, I don't want to gain weight to get rid of the wrinkles!