Stem and Hoods questions

[GraysonKelly]

Hi all,
Thanks again for all your wonderful words and support when I was in a funk last week...I appreciate it. I'm fairly over the funk...at the moment. And I wish to pick your brains again...

I am almost perfectly comfortable on my road bike (incidentally I call her that but she's technically a touring bike, does that make a difference?), but I am still having issues with reach. I have moved my saddle forward, back, sideways (just kidding) I have raised it, lowered it but I am still uncomfortable with the reach to my handle bars, ie my elbows are almost always completely extended and I am not comfortable reaching the drops or even the brifters. The only way I can reach just the flat part of the bar with my elbows slightly bent is if my seat is all the way back but then i'm practically laying flat (this is not comfortable for me). My LBS has raised the handle bars as much as they can and have rotated the bars as far as they can. So my questions:
Do I need a new stem?
If I do, how does one go about finding one without spending oodles of money?
And does a longer stem mean that the handle bars will raise up? Or does that mean they they will be closer to me? like horizontally? I have no idea.

Hoods problem/question: Is it possible that my hoods are too thick? They feel huge to me. it could be because I have trouble reaching them but they do feel pretty big/thick. I don't have a problem shifting or anything, but it feels a little awkward for me. I don't know if this is right, but I feel that I should be able to switch from having my hands on the flat part of bar to the hoods to shifting and back again pretty flawlessly...I can't do that and feel comfortable as it stands.
Okay, that's enough for now. Thanks again for all of your help and advice. Have a great day,
Gray
PS I am most used to riding a mountain bike. If these issues I'm bringing up are a result of me just needing more time to adjust to a road type geometry, please let me know. I am comfortable on the bike, just think that I should be a little more comfortable...if that makes sense.

[alpinerabbit]

Your bars will move closer to you if you install a stem with a steeper angle. Shouldn't cost you a fortune (from 40$) and I hope this does the trick (unless the bike is hopelessly too big for you). A longer stem will do the opposite.

I don't quite understand why you had the saddle moved back. This does not help IMHO. In addition you mess with the knee position over the pedal axle.


As always, pictures would help.

[GraysonKelly]

Your bars will move closer to you if you install a stem with a steeper angle. Shouldn't cost you a fortune (from 40$) and I hope this does the trick (unless the bike is hopelessly too big for you). A longer stem will do the opposite.

I don't quite understand why you had the saddle moved back. This does not help IMHO. In addition you mess with the knee position over the pedal axle.


As always, pictures would help.

LOL, I was trying different stuff to try and get the arm and hand position right. I moved it back because moving it forward was really, really bad. I marked my saddle so I'd know what position it was in before I started moving it hither and thither. Thanks for the clarification on the stem questions. I had a rather generic fit when I bought the bike so the bike technically "fits" but I haven't found anyone really thorough that will do a fit for me. The LBS doesn't really do much, at least from what I've seen. If anyone knows of any in the Pittsburgh area, let me know.
I have a bad knee and have a good understanding of knee kinesiolgy, biomechanics, etc so I'm extremely meticulous about this. It's the rest of it that I can't do myself. Well, I could if I could be on the bike and measure myself at the same time, but that doesn't really seem to work. Here's some pics of the bike, not sure what you're looking for, but here ya go.

[Triskeliongirl]

I bought a new bike recently, and felt exactly like you do on the stock bar while waiting for my LBS to order me the recommended bar. The bar I ended up with, called the 3T ergonova, has a long flat top, short reach, and short drop. I LOVE IT. Before getting this bar I was like you, I was using the hoods when I should be in the drops (descending), the tops for climbing, and that position behind the hoods for cruising (when I should have been in the hoods). The carbon version is expensive, but it also comes in aluminum if money is an issue. I also like this bar cuz the drops are longer than on other short reach bars. But when I was out riding I noticed what other gals had, and the bontrager VR Fit seemed quite popular, also not expensive in aluminum. But I worried the drops weren't as extended for me. But its even shorter reach (70mm) vs mine which is (77mm) if that is an important consideration for you. Salsa poco is also short reach (70mm) and popular with many, but I don't like the deeper ergo drops. FOr me, the very shallow smooth drop is better.

I also ordered some shims from specialized to bring the levers closer to the bar (these are not expensive but gruppo specific so take a look). I am waiting for those now, but if you look at my recent I got a new bike thread compare the first pic to the last to see how diff it looks with the bar change.

Looking at your set-up, you may also want to try raising the positioning of the shifters on the bar. My fitter did this as well, and had me vary that and go ride before we taped the bars.

[bike4ever]

GraysonKelly - I used to work in a shop in Mt Lebanon called TRM cycles. They have since moved to Castle Shannon, but I believe they are still under the same ownership. I remember they did a wonderful job of bike fitting.

http://trekofpgh.com/page.cfm?PageID=266

I am a huge fan of the Bontrager Fit handlebar. This bar has very little reach with a small drop. This works very well with small hands.

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

[GraysonKelly]

I bought a new bike recently, and felt exactly like you do on the stock bar while waiting for my LBS to order me the recommended bar. The bar I ended up with, called the 3T ergonova, has a long flat top, short reach, and short drop. I LOVE IT. Before getting this bar I was like you, I was using the hoods when I should be in the drops (descending), the tops for climbing, and that position behind the hoods for cruising (when I should have been in the hoods). The carbon version is expensive, but it also comes in aluminum if money is an issue. I also like this bar cuz the drops are longer than on other short reach bars. But when I was out riding I noticed what other gals had, and the bontrager VR Fit seemed quite popular, also not expensive in aluminum. But I worried the drops weren't as extended for me. But its even shorter reach (70mm) vs mine which is (77mm) if that is an important consideration for you. Salsa poco is also short reach (70mm) and popular with many, but I don't like the deeper ergo drops. FOr me, the very shallow smooth drop is better.

I also ordered some shims from specialized to bring the levers closer to the bar (these are not expensive but gruppo specific so take a look). I am waiting for those now, but if you look at my recent I got a new bike thread compare the first pic to the last to see how diff it looks with the bar change.

Looking at your set-up, you may also want to try raising the positioning of the shifters on the bar. My fitter did this as well, and had me vary that and go ride before we taped the bars.

ROTFL!! Trisk, thank you so much and I will go check out your post about the new bike and pics. Thank you. I'm laughing because I just spent 10 minutes reading this and looking up about every 5 words your said!!! I'm laughing at me. I'm sure when i look into this that I'll understand better what your saying, but all I got out of that right now is that a smaller set of handle bars might be a good idea. I agree with that and appreciate your advice.
Have a great day! I'm learning and ya'll just help me learn more and more, I love that. Thanks!
Gray

[GraysonKelly]

GraysonKelly - I used to work in a shop in Mt Lebanon called TRM cycles. They have since moved to Castle Shannon, but I believe they are still under the same ownership. I remember they did a wonderful job of bike fitting.

http://trekofpgh.com/page.cfm?PageID=266

I am a huge fan of the Bontrager Fit handlebar. This bar has very little reach with a small drop. This works very well with small hands.

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

Wow! Thanks! There's actually several locations listed for this place so I'll give them a call. As I just mentioned to Trisk, i was actually thinking that smaller handlebar might help a little. I don't think I have extremely small hands, but they aren't big (The gloves I wear are men's smalls because the women's small was too small and the medium was a little too big for my tastes). I just want to make sure I get this right because I've already got wrist issues in both wrists and don't want to make it worse.
Thanks again!
Gray

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I would rotate your bars UP so that the curved part of the bars on top right behind the hoods is level with the ground. As you have it now, you must curve your wrists down in a very awkward position to grab the hoods and wrap around the brakes. Don't worry about the bar ends being level with the ground- on ergonomic bars like yours they don't have to be.

And yes, sometimes pushing your saddle all the way back can get your center of gravity back more and help get weight off your hands.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'll try to keep it simple. Its not just about hand size. I wear a size L women's glove.

Its about flexibility and torso/arm length. You need to be able to reach your bars with a bend in your elbow, not locked out as you describe. There are two ways to bring the bar in, One is to shorten the stem one is to shorten the bar (reach not width now). I don't know what the reach is on your current bar, but I threw out same names of bars know to have relatively short reaches. Turning the bars up and repositioning the levers may also help, but then you have to be sure they don't effect how your hands feel in the drops.

What I just learned though, is how varying the drop can help. My new bar has an ususually shallow drop. That means I don't have to bend as low to reach them, which is better for my body.

What I suggest is, going to shop that may even have these bars already mounted on a bike. We started by putting another bike in a trainer that had the bar I was considering, so I could get a first impression. When it felt right, he mounted one on my bike, and set about varying the position of the brake levers until it felt perfect. Now, this was part of a new bike purchase fitting, so I probably got more attention paid to me than on a retro-fit.

But, everything I hear you saying is that you'd like your bars a bit closer to your body. The shims are about making the levers be closer to the bars when you are in the drops which is a separat but also important issue (a cheap $10 fix).

[Mr. SR500]

Saddle should be set up for your legs both power and comfort - reach adjustment comes via the stem and bike size.

I agree your bars should be rotated up, I like the top of the bars to be flat as it joins the hoods, not sloping down as you have.

You stem looks like about a 110 mm, you can easily go shorter and with a higher angle. My wife runs a 60 mm 30 degree stem. That is about as short as you want to go, but works great for her.

Looks like you have lots of adjustment to get you feeling good on your bike.

[Eden]

ah the endless quest for bike fit....

If your elbows are always straight out, I would think that just changing the bars will be unlikely to make enough difference - it sounds like you need a shorter stem, and possibly different bars.

If you do go with different bars, see if there is any way you can try them out first.... Personally though I am a small person and have small hands, I found ergo bars with a very shallow drop to be *very* uncomfortable... I was banging my forearms on the ends of the drops and actually bruising them... I prefer pretty traditional rounded bars and a decent sized drop. Though I have small hands I've never had any problems with standard levers hoods, but if its an issue for you - look into shimming your levers out a bit.

As we are all different.... I would have to disagree with Mr. SR.... for me, I like having my drops parallel to the ground... otherwise I feel like I'm all the time sliding off of them... I prefer to move my levers down to achieve a flat hood over rotating the bars (though from your photos it looks like that may be hard to do with the style of handlebar you have - it looks like there is little flat to the top of the bar...). Moving the levers down also moves them closer to the drop portion of the bar and should make them easier to reach. It seems to be in vogue these days to rotate the bars up and place the levers very high??? (or maybe my bike was just assembled by a teenager who didn't really know what he was doing) Just not comfy for me.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

You stem looks like about a 110 mm, you can easily go shorter and with a higher angle. My wife runs a 60 mm 30 degree stem. That is about as short as you want to go, but works great for her.

Yes I agree, you have a pretty long stem on there for someone with reach problems. Personally, I would recommend you try a 70 mm, and yes stay with a stem that tilts up. Perhaps an adjustable stem might be a good option too.

[Triskeliongirl]

While folks have thrown out lots of good ideas, I think the next step for you is finding a really good fitter. I know that is not easy, but it seems a previous poster gave you a good suggestion, so before you buy a new stem or bars, I would explore that. I am sorry but no matter how well meaning we are, there is no way a bunch of folks can fit you to your bike on the internet. Sure, you can collect information on solutions that have worked for others to share with your fitter, but you need to be fit by an experienced person that can watch how your body responds to subtle tweaks.

Indeed, saddle position needs to be set for power over the pedals, not to correct a reach problem. Then stem length, stem height, bar reach, drop reach, drop shape, and lever positioning, are all paramaters that can be manipulated, and are influenced by your flexibility and personal preferences. I too MUST have my bars parallel to the ground, or the drops feel wrong, but I also like them flat on top, which you can get with the right bar and lever positioning.

I figured this all out the hard way, and then only finally as part of a new bike purchase did I complete my journey by discovering that the owner of a local shop that I had never tried before has outstanding fitting skills.

Good luck to you, and keep us posted how it works.

[GraysonKelly]

Ok,
I've gotten a lot of really good information and I thank you all for taking the time to respond. Now, let me see if I understand all of this...
1. I need a bike fit, it's the only way I'm gonna get this really straightened out.
2. I possibly need a new stem that is shorter but still steep?
3. I could try rotating the bars up just to see if that would solve the problem.
4. I possibly need a new handlebar that is perhaps not quite as wide and isn't as "big" as the one I have now (ie I think by more shallow drops that you mean that the bars themselves curve too far forward thus making them harder for me to reach)
5. Now, the purpose of shims is to bring the actual levers closer to the bar, right?
Okay, boy, writing that out helped it make more sense. I'm gonna call that place that was mentioned and see if I can schedule a fit. I'm hoping that my LBS didn't actually sell me a bike just for the heck of it. When he sold it to me, he said it was a good size for me and it did feel good at first, but since I've been riding it on the trainer, it has been bugging me. So hopefully it's not totally wrong because I absolutely cannot afford another one.
So anyway, I appreciate all the advice and I'll keep you all posted...if I get her all fixed up I'll take some pics and show you.
Have a great day,
Gray

[Eden]

1-3 spot on
4 - shallow refers to the distance between the top of the bar and the drop. Reach - distance that the bars stick out forward, width - how wide side to side
5 -yep, shims move the lever a little closer into the bars. If you shim then your brakes does have a little less throw, but I don't think its generally an issue