Serious Issue: Advice for Dealing with Alcoholics

[maryellen]

i have a 94 year old father in a similar situation. not easy.

side note: In response to your aside about nursing homes and Medicare, typically Medicare does NOT pay for long term nursing home care. Usually the elder must "spend down" their assets until they qualify for Medicaid.

[mimitabby]

more from Mr Raleighdon who apologizes for butting in once again on a women's cycling forum:

alcoholism is one of the most destructive FAMILY diseases in our society. Unfortunately it isn't just the alcoholic that suffers from the disease and it is not only the alcoholic that lives in a state of denial. While family members don't cause the disease (i.e., it ain't their fault), neither do the alcoholics, themselves. None of us can control this disease, and yet we spend countless hours, days weeks, months and years of our lives attempting to do just that. "If I could just get mom or dad to cut down..." "If we could just....." Well, I can't, you can't and we can't. And the more we try, the sicker we become and at the same time, so does the alcoholic.

The bottom of every hole is that point at which someone throws down their shovel and stops digging. And it isn't just the alcoholic who needs to come to a point of surrender into a recovery process. For family members affected by this disease, the impact of years of the disease is a denial system that is every bit as well ingrained as that of the alcoholic, and must be broken through if there is any hope for recovery. The alcoholic may or may not get sober. That is a choice that they, and only they, can make. A great deal of assistance can be rendered in a lot of ways to help them get there, but unfortunately, a family member who is just as sick as them is not the person to render that assistance with love, respect, non-judmental decision making and dignity. If mom and/or dad are faced with assisted living, there are innumerable community services available that can give a lot of help, but as long as the adult children of alcholics think they can control mom and dad, the problem will continue to become worse not betterr.

I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism. It just seems to me that this is about control and attention getting, both which are well defined and clearly identifiable symptoms of a highly evolved and advanced state of denial about ones' own problem. Don't bother to focus on the REAL PROBLEM, which is your own life, your own fears, your own self-doubt, your own low self esteem, your own losses, but deflect all of that outward, attempt to get others to endorse your bull$&#%) and fish for answers you can pick apart, re-work until they seem to agree with your own desires which are clouded with diseased thinking and find that one person out of twenty who will say, "Oh you poor thing. How hard it must be for you." and lock in on that sympathy.

Alcoholics and adult children of alcoholics neither deserve nor need pity. They already have enough of that themselves. All that self-pity is keeping them sick. What they need is a hand up, and good, professional help, support from their own community and to be treated with dignity and respect. Sometimes, that dignity and respect may mean making some tough choices, like saying goodbye. Respecting someone enough to quit endorsing their behavior. Respecting someone enough to allow them to live with the consequences of the life of bad decisions they have made. Respecting someone enough to say to them, I'm very sorry you feel that way, but I disagree and can't accept the guilt, shame and blame that you are trying to put on me."

Ánd as Forrest Gump might add, That's all I have to say about that.

[Crankin]

OK, I'm going to chime in here, despite the fact that I have no experience with alcoholism. In fact, I am only going to address the question Mr. Mimi posed: Why would a man ask advice on this topic from the women on TE?

I think (and I may be presumptive here), Mr. Silver asked because we are a community and he feels like he belongs to this community. We might disagree as to the answers to this problem, which is a tough one. But, I think that Mr. S is just reaching out for advice. It's not weird and I could see my husband doing the same thing. Not all men are the same.

Robyn

[Triskeliongirl]

I am gonna chime in with Robyn here. No disrespect meant to Mimi, but what I think Raleighdon doesn't get is that our community is unique, in part cuz we are mostly women, but that gender is not a requirement for participation. I think he is making a lot of assumptions about Mr. Silver's participation here that frankly aren't true. There are many kinds of people out there. I belong to bike journal to track my miles, and even though it is a mixed gender forum (so I officially 'belong'), I only tend to read the posts on the days that TE is down. Now, based on what I read last week I could read all kinds of things into that silly banter between Raleighdon and Pansypalmetto, but I won't cuz I know that banter suits a particular personality, just as our banter here suits a different personality. But I would never be so presumptuous as to read the kinds of things that Raleighdon is reading into Mr. Silver's posts.

With that being said, I do believe that Raleighdon's suggestion to get professional counseling on this one is a good one. I think Mr. Silver posted here cuz he couldn't sleep and he (and silver) needed a place to vent which is entirely appropriate within our community.

[Running Mommy]

WOW! I just read a part of one of the posts above and I have to say.... Can we all take a step back and count to ten??

I have nothing to add, but my support for the Silver family. Over the last few months I feel like I've gotten to know them, and I really feel for what they are going through right now.

Being a part of both a triathlon and this online forum for the last few years, I have encountered many view points. I've always tried to respect everyones right as an individual to believe what they want, even if I don't.
And over the years I have come across a few who I have thought that I would really like to meet someday. The silver family is on that list.
So again, nothing to add but my support and prayers.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.

[jusdooit]

Jumping in here.
Silvers, I understand not wanting your parents to spend their last days in a nursing home. I had that struggle as well, for different reasons. I finally placed my mother because caring for her was killing me. Nursing facilities are all different, take time to find one that suits them best. A good facility will not allow your parents to sit around all day watching TV and bemoaning what's wrong with the world. My mother was very active, participating in nearly all the activities available to her, in spite of declining health. And............this may sound cold, it is a natural consequence to choosing to continue on the path of alcoholism. I am a recovering alcoholic.........I would have said or done anything while drinking to get others off my back. Mr. your mother's empty promises may be nothing more, but it's possible she wants to stop, but can't. I would get her help, if she takes it great, if not she has made the choices. The only option I see to protecting them (and you)from themselves if they won't stop drinking is long term care. So what if it takes all their money, so be it. Remember it was their choice to get to this point.
I might add I stopped drinking through AA. No one intervened, no treatment, just sick and tired of the life I was living.

[Geonz]

And back to the original topic... here are some thoughts I have no investment in so toss 'em if you like. Could part of this be as simple as after two drinks go down the rest taste better and better... not because of deep-rooted psychological issues but physiology? I say this because an elderly biking buddy said he has given up drinking because after one, he wants two and three and four... and this has been a physiological change. (I don't know if there are other issues like meds involve or not.)
She seems to recognize that there *is* a problem with drinking too much... would she grasp that she needs to figure out a way to deal with the apparent fact that once she starts, she doesn't stop? FInd creative ways to keep the quantity down (like "you gotta drink two glasses of seltzer water for every drink")?
Again, not any kind of expert here but tossing in the "options if other ones aren't working" ideas.

It's not clear who the "control" and "attention seeking" comments are talkin' about... but mayhbe that's how it was meant.

[Zen]

Actually, the initial post involves more issues than a parents alcoholism. I don't think Raleighdon was criticizing, simply stating facts, one of which is that this is a parent-child issue as well as an addiction issue.
It may be difficult but I do think it's something to consider. Tough Love.

[Crankin]

Good point, Lisa. Most likely they wouldn't. Everyone has a different personality and that usually comes through in what's written here. I am not involved in any other on line forum; I do bike journal just to track my miles, but I am seriously considering not rejoining because I am not sure how much I will be able to ride next year and I get obsessive about it anyways. But back to the point you made; our society expects women to seek advice, but not men. My husband stayed home with our first son when he was born in 1982, for the first eight months. He was totally comfortable with that role, even though it was very unusual back then. He never felt weird taking the kids to daycare or hanging around and talking to the other moms there. I am sure some might have thought he had other motives or was trying to meet some need because of a "problem," but it just wasn't the case.
It is ah, usually pretty obvious when someone on the forum is having real psychological issues and I don't think Mr. Silver is one of them. Sure, the situation does require help from professionals, but he is just asking for advice here.

[mimitabby]

Hmmm....would people criticize Silver the same way if it had been she who initiated this thread instead of Mr. Silver? I suspect not, but it's something to think about.

Lisa, the response would have been the same except for the specific paragraph referring to men on women's boards. Raleighdon posted (after I mentioned the Alcohol situation) out of a genuine response to wanting to help with the pain and suffering that we have both seen so many times that is caused by the Disease of Alcoholism. My response here is late because we were out in the sticks at a New Year's Eve party, where ironically, one of raleighdon's best riding buddies had a drunken meltdown in the middle of the best restaurant in the town we were in, terrifying and embarrassing all of us. We drove home from there sad
about yet another FAMILY whose life was being destroyed by the disease.

[Juliette]

I've often wondered why a man would spend so much of his energy surrounding himself with women in a site like Team Estrogen, and Mimitabby shares posts with me sometimes, seeking my thoughts on various issues. It astounds me that a purported well educated and balanced man would come to a women's bicycling group about his mom and dad's alcoholism.[/QUOTE]

This is kind of offensive on a couple of different levels:

1) Maybe Mr. Silver just needs a place to unload. This has historically been a non-critical, non-judgemental group. That is often hard to come by these days. OK, a few divas and kooks have come by every now and then, but on the whole, people here are respectful and courteous. Making judgements about a single participant based on a few comments seems rude and inappropriate.

2)Mercy, a man asking women for advice. What is this world coming to!!! Like women have no value to add to discussion with a man because of their gender. Sorry, I'm not buying into that. It seems like there are some really wise people participating on this board and from some of the replies to this thread, others have gone down this road also.

I don't have any experience with alchoholism, but we all have problems to work through and my thoughts are with the Silvers as they deal with this issue.

[Mr. Bloom]

Raleighdon:
1) Thank you for your insightful thoughts in three of your paragraphs. As I understand from Mimi's earlier post, you have direct professional experience that gives credibility to your input (as to the matter of dealing with alcoholics). When I ask someone what they think, it's my hope that they'll tell me what they think, not what I want them to say. Your feedback is thought provoking and that's useful.

2) As to your somewhat personal attack on me:

• You're welcome to criticize me, my motives, my shortcomings, etc.
• But in all honesty, I'd encourage you to 'earn qualification' to do so by interacting with me directly first. Say the word, and I'll PM you my phone # and email address - Then you can analyze me thoroughly My life's an open book and is anything but perfect...but you can rest assured that "pity" is not a phrase in my vocabulary. I count my blessings everyday.
• Don't criticize me because we see things differently. I may not hang out in macho places like you, but rest assured I'm very happy with who I am

In business, I dive in head first and confront challenges that don't have evident answers. But, personal matters are not so easy. In reality, there is no single 'right' response. That's where a forum like this is helpful...and this happens to be a very experienced, diverse, and intelligent group where, in 24 hours, I received feedback and encouragement from a culturally and geographically diverse group of people to challenge and guide me.

So, why do I dive in here before diving into the "community services available"? Well, unlike you, we live in a small city...as a matter of fact, I was the board president of a remarkable organization that is THE BEST "community service available" in this area...but it's not suited for this this situation...so I know the local options are limited.

Thanks for your thoughts. My offer of my #/email address is sincere - not for confrontation, but if you have insight into a problem that I don't see, then I'm all ears

Have a Happy New Year!

[Flybye]

Raleighdon:
1) Thank you for your insightful thoughts in three of your paragraphs. As I understand from Mimi's earlier post, you have direct professional experience that gives credibility to your input (as to the matter of dealing with alcoholics). When I ask someone what they think, it's my hope that they'll tell me what they think, not what I want them to say. Your feedback is thought provoking and that's useful.

2) As to your somewhat personal attack on me:

• You're welcome to criticize me, my motives, my shortcomings, etc.
• But in all honesty, I'd encourage you to 'earn qualification' to do so by interacting with me directly first. Say the word, and I'll PM you my phone # and email address - Then you can analyze me thoroughly My life's an open book and is anything but perfect...but you can rest assured that "pity" is not a phrase in my vocabulary. I count my blessings everyday.
• Don't criticize me because we see things differently. I may not hang out in macho places like you, but rest assured I'm very happy with who I am

In business, I dive in head first and confront challenges that don't have evident answers. But, personal matters are not so easy. In reality, there is no single 'right' response. That's where a forum like this is helpful...and this happens to be a very experienced, diverse, and intelligent group where, in 24 hours, I received feedback and encouragement from a culturally and geographically diverse group of people to challenge and guide me.

So, why do I dive in here before diving into the "community services available"? Well, unlike you, we live in a small city...as a matter of fact, I was the board president of a remarkable organization that is THE BEST "community service available" in this area...but it's not suited for this this situation...so I know the local options are limited.

Thanks for your thoughts. My offer of my #/email address is sincere - not for confrontation, but if you have insight into a problem that I don't see, then I'm all ears

Have a Happy New Year!

I/We don't have any problems with anyone knowing what's going on, or our reputations or anything like that. Yes, I know quite a few recovering alcoholics. We know the resources. We know where they meet. I've been to the meetings. I'm a recovering addict. I have a good picture of how these programs can help, where to get resources. But what I know and what I've seen, does not address this situation. Going to an Al-anon meeting is not going to help me navigate the decisions that I need to make today, tonight, tomorrow to meet their needs....the ins and outs of nursing home care, end of life issues.

I truly respect both of you - the more I read your posts, the more I respect you. It takes a great deal of self control and self reflection to handle everything that you are going through in the manner with which you are.

As a side note, I completely agree with #2 on Mr. Silver's list. Nothing was ever gained by criticism - it is a fruitless venting of emotion and frustration UNLESS it is done in love with good intentions, which I don't believe that it was.

[Wahine]

As a side note, I completely agree with #2 on Mr. Silver's list. Nothing was ever gained by criticism - it is a fruitless venting of emotion and frustration UNLESS it is done in love with good intentions, which I don't believe that it was.

Having met Mr. Mimitabby in person, I believe that his post was given with nothing but good intentions. His tone may have been different/more forceful than what we are used to here on TE. This is the same as a person raising their voice to get their point across. To someone like me who was raised in a quiet family, raising one's voice comes across as confrontational (until I learned otherwise). In the household of many of my friends with different backgrounds, it's a totally normal expression of intense feeling about the issue and can still be very constructive.

And I'd have to argue that criticism can be very useful. If it's given with ideas of how to address the issue, it can be thought provoking and become the catalyst for change. Criticism that is nothing but negative feedback without suggestions for how to correct a situation is useless. My impression is that Mr. MT provided the former not the latter.

Mr. MT took time to compose 2 posts on a forum that he does not visit because he has specific expertise in the area. Perhaps it could have been done in a better way. But I would like to see us leave that issue to Mr. S and Mr. MT to deal with independently, as suggested by Mr. S.

Again Silvers, good luck, we're thinking about you.