Serious Issue: Advice for Dealing with Alcoholics

[Mr. Bloom]

Met a nice guy at the ER tonight...he's a cyclist/runner that was the nurse caring for Mr. Silver Mom when we took her to the hospital.

After a fall in her assisted living apartment at 11PM, we weren't sure if she was having a stroke or not.

No stroke, but .22 on blood alcohol (at least 2 hrs after the fall...). Yep, that's pickled...legal limit in Indiana is .08...

Mom and Dad used to each consume 12-16 ounces of Scotch/day. We intervened and got that reduced to 6 ounces/day - administered in measured quantities from the nursing staff at their home (along with their medication) We further modified this in the last couple weeks by diluting the supply...after dad had several falls in one day (he's now in a rehab facility recovering from the falls...)

My resourceful parents have clearly found another source and are bypassing regulated quantities.

There's any one of a number of things that I can do:

• find 'their source; and get a restraining order (this is easy)
• limit their access to cash (I'm already trustee and control all their assets)
• force place them in rehab (wouldn't that be fun?!?!?!?)
• continue to reason unsuccessfully with them

Unfortunately, none of these issues address the primary requisite of recovery from addiction...they have to see it as a problem and want to quit... and they don't see it as a problem or want to quit...

I know from prior work with Teen Challenge that the addicted is usually OK with their plight...it's the family who has to deal with all the effects of the addiction...and that's where we are...dealing with it while they don't give a darn...

There's a lot of insightful and experienced folks here...So, how do you entice 80 year olds to want to stop drinking??? Simply telling them the impact it has on us is not working...

Sincerely,
The Sleepless Silvers

[rocknrollgirl]

Mr. Silver and Silver family,

I have spent my whole life dealing with people with addiction. Two of the four kids in my family were addicts. I say were because their addictions ultimately claimed their lives. Too early.

I am no expert by any means, not in the professional sense. I only have first hand expereince. Baptism by fire so to speak.

So this is my advice. They will not stop unless they want to or have hit their absolute rock bottom. Go behind their backs and do what you have to do to protect them and keep yourselves sane.

Tough advice, but you can't do it for them. I have been there and tried that...

Good luck and I will keep you in my thoughts.

Ruth

[Mr. Bloom]

Ruth, thanks.

In your opinion, how effective would/could it be if:

• I force-place them in detox (dad was detoxed after a three month nursing home stay last year but then started drinking again upon discharge)
• absolutely restrict access to cash for purchases

Will the removal of the physical craving post-detox alleviate the mental craving???

At the core is a problem...I'm the kid being the parent...and they are "old enough" to make their own decisions (unless I get them declared unfit)

[mtbdarby]

Mr. Silver - I too am not a professional but among the baptism by fire crowd.

You already know the bottom line - you can't make them stop drinking. Period. By restricting their amounts, diluting their alcohol, etc. all you're doing is enabling them. This, in my opinion, is doing more harm to you personally and your relationship with your parents.

What I would suggest is to bring this information to the attention of their doctors and seek professional guidance. If someone at the facility is providing alcohol that needs to be addressed for a multitude of reasons.

This may sound a bit cold, but it's not your responsibility to make them stop drinking, even as much as you may want too. That is a part of the sickness of alcoholism. If you haven't already done so, you may want to join Al-Anon. I credit them with saving my life and sanity as I got very caught up with feeling responsible for the fact that my ex was drinking and destroying our lives. It was eye opening the extent that I was responsibile for, but it in no way was for how and why he was drinking.

You are an intelligent and compassionate man. Take care of yourself and Silver family first and foremost. Let the professionals guide you with the decisions to be made reguarding your parents. Alcoholism is a family disease and it's effects are far reaching.

Best of luck to you!

[mimitabby]

if they're not driving, i say let them have their booze. they are adults
and they are only endangering themselves. Don't reason with them,
that's a waste of time. you could sure limit their alcohol, but you could
kill them by taking it completely away.

you need to go to Alanon. THEY will help you through this.

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Raleighdon aka Mr Mimitabby used to be an alcoholism counselor. he wanted me to add this:

Alcohol kills. It also destroys lives. Not just for those that are drinking, but for those around them.
That said, mom and dad are in their 80's and unless their alcohol "ism" is causing major impact
on either their activities or causing them or others physical harm, at this point in their life, treatment
may have very limited benefit. As mimitabby said the true beneficiary would be the family around them
who can best be served by something like Alanon


there is, however, great hope if mom and dad can be helped to either significantly reduce or completely
quit drinking. when someone is in their 80's however, simply removing their alcohol will not change a lifetime
of alcoholic behavior.. what i found as an alcoholism treatment professional was that in order to help create meaningful difference in peoples' lives it was critical that we involve our older patients with others in their peer group which is very difficult because
their peer group is diminishing so rapidly.

Particularly problematic in a situation when both mom and dad are both abusing, if one is able to quit drinking and the other
not, an incredible amount of sabotage can and often does occur. The alcohol itself is not as much the problem but rather, a symptom of some much greater underlying problems more than likely having to do with things unresolved in their lives. Are you prepared, at this juncture in your parents' lives to not just take their alcohol away, but deal with all the other life issues that are behind that mask? If not, you are creating more problems for both them and yourself than you are helping to avoid.
If mom and dad quit drinking today, with medically supervised detox and treatment you may add a little bit of quality to their remaining years but unless you and they deal with the other problems, the only outcome is a lot of pain and misery for all concerned.

[Hub]

Dude,
I have no sage advice, I can only wish you luck & strength. I can only imagince how tough that is to deal with.

[KnottedYet]

Just a quick aside: Mr. Silver, does your mom have celiac? (or is that Silver's mom?) Alcohol hits celiacs a lot harder. You might want to ask the doc about that when you get the chance.

Dar - very good point about how if someone at the facility is providing alcohol to residents it needs to be addressed pronto.

RD - wise post.

[Flybye]

I feel for you both. Alcoholism runs deep in my side of the family.

This comes from a Social Worker perspective and also from experiences with Flybyebrother.

Have you tried an intervention? I don't want to go into a lengthy explanation if you know what one is, so I will just give the shorthand version:

The family has to meet without the grandparents first and decide what they want the outcome of the meeting to be and write up the specifics. For example - you both need to go to treatment or if you don't quit finding alcohol, we will limit your income. This is also the time that you decide what two or three things that you want to share with your parents when you meet with them and the family.

Basically, when they are sober, you and your wife and children, possibly their nurse, and anyone else in the family who is affected by their alcoholism agree to meet together and confront the issue which right now is really their drinking and how it affects their relationship with the family.


Then all of the members of the family meet with the grandparents.

Each person can share very specific times that grandma or grandpa's drinking let them down----
For the kids perhaps a missed sporting event, a holiday where they were so drunk that they made an a$$ out of themselves, etc.
For Mr. and Mrs. perhaps the legacy that they are leaving behind for the family - do they really want to be remembered as alcoholics? Do they want their children and grandchildren to see them die with dignity or from problems related to alcoholism?
Also - the tough situation that they put you both in by putting you in a situation where you are now playing the parent - you'd need to tell them specifically why you don't like this - don't hide emotions through any of this. Also, the decision that you have to limit their finances - share with them how you don't want to have that burden placed on you right now and how you don't want to have their final years with you spent with them being angry for limiting their income because of poor decisions that they are making.
Share with them that you are angry, frustrated, disappointed, ashamed, hurt, etc. Don't hide anything.
For the nurse - perhaps how their alcoholism puts him in a tough spot because he cares for them yet he can see what they do to themselves despite the good care that he gives.

There are key things involved in the intervention - you need a spokesman who shares with the grandparents the reason that everyone is gathered (love for them), that they aren't allowed to leave while the meeting is in session, and that they must hear each person speak without interrupting.

They then have an opportunity to respond to what you have said.

At the end of it all, you lay out specifics, which the family has to agreed to before the meeting -
treatment, money issues, etc.

They don't have to agree to anything right away, they need to have time to digest what everyone has said to them and form a bond with one another. They do need a specific time that they will give you an answer - for example the next day at a specific time - and again, the whole family should be there.

This is a highly emotional process that is emotionally exhausting. But, it works pretty well.

There are some great books on interventions available and I will see if I can link you to some here in a bit. Maybe amazon? Google drug and alcohol intervention?

Essentially, though, you are giving them a reason for wanting to quit - which is for all of you, not for them. It does become a reason for them later in the process.

We did an intervention with my brother and it worked. He was using cocaine and destroying his life. He got treatment and gradually started making changes in his life. It isn't always foolproof, however.

There may also be other older people at the senior citizen center in you area that have been though the process of making changes in their own lives and who can be a positive support for them.

The number one and number two things that affect the elderly are loneliness and depression. The senior center would help with at least the loneliness.

Hope that helps a bit. You can pm or email questions about this process to me and I will see if I can help out more.

Sorry that you are going through this.

Another thought - they really could live another 15 years. We never know. I wouldn't write it all off because of their age. Two years of meaningful sobriety is worth it, in my opinion.

Thoughts and Prayers,
Flybye

[newfsmith]

I quit drinking 29 years ago when a social worker told me that if I was found drunk again, I would lose my kids. I've had 1 glass of wine since that day. I can tell you that the craving never goes away, just slowly gets less intense. There are still days when I see booze billboards and feel like driving right into them. The craving is as real as hunger or thirst or feeling sleepy. You can't will it away, but you can do things to reduce it to a managable level, the equivalent of sucking on a hard candy or ice-cube, or sipping coffee. It is an ongoing life change that requires a lot of motivation, goals, and desire that has to come from within, as well as support from family. (By the way, I got sober before my Dad did.)

I would also urge you to go to Al-Anon to help you deal with the issues alcoholism in the family raise. I would also suggest that at your parent's age you have to accept that it is not a time of goal setting and changing. They have accepted that their goal is to drink themselves into the grave. You need to let go of the "saving them from themselves" attitude, and accept that you can only make sure that you are keeping them as safe as possible. Since they are in assisted living, you have gone about as far as you can with that. The only other thing you can do is to go the the manager of the facility and ask them to remind the employees that providing unauthorized alcohol to an alcoholic resident is unethical, a violation of their responsibility to help protect the resident; and if discovered probably grounds for dismissal.

Please go to Al-Anon for the support you need in understanding that loving your parents doesn't mean you are responsible for their failings. I'll be holding both of you, and your parents, in the light.

[Flybye]

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Famil...9029497&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Intervention-H..._sim_b_title_1

Either of these books might work. The second one has reviews but I didn't see any on the first book.

[Running Mommy]

Ohh silver family! The crosses you have had to bear this year are many! I so hope that 2008 is a better year for you.
I didn't read through all the responses, but I think Mimi's post was spot on.
At their age change isnt very likely.
I'd say just do the best you can, try to find out WHO the supplier is. - I'd be ALL over that facility!!
I'm sure you are tho!
Sigh.... I feel for you. My dad is an alcoholic, and his drinking angers me so that it makes me shake!
Best of luck, and we are all praying for you (well the entire silver family)

denise

[makbike]

Mr Silver-

I know from family experience you can't make someone stop drinking and face their issues until they are willing to do so. They have to want it. Talk to their health care team for they may have some sound advise to give. You most certainly can and should express your concerns to your parents but again they have to want to stop drinking and until they make that decision all you can do is continue to support them and love them.

[RoadRaven]

Hi there Silver family

This post comes with a disclaimer as I am about to play "Devil's Advocate".

I have had alcoholics in my life and my "fifth son" was staying with us when his alcoholic mother drank herself to death in front of two of his brothers. I know the evils and the dangers and the pain this addiction causes.

Disclaimer: My post below:
- in no way wishes to endorse alcoholism as an acceptable life-style
- does not negate the hurt and anguish felt by the families of alcoholics
- does not try to endorse "feeding" a habit as a way of dealing with alcoholics


Mr Silver, I understand the desire to have your family healthy and with you as long as possible... but you say your parents are in their 80s... will getting them off alcohol seriously prolong their lives or enhance their quality of life? Their bodies and minds are used to this now and surely it is kinder to allow them to have a little of what they crave as they near the end of their lives, than to try to eliminate the addiction and have them craving (with all the attendant side-effects) something they cannot have and perhaps even resenting those around them who are depriving them.

By this, I do not mean allow them to become rolling drunk, but do comsider allowing them their drink. They are in their 80s - they have earned the right to choose how they see out the end of their days... they know the consequences of drinking... including disappointing and possibly estranging their families... including injuring themselves...

Here is an example (using nicoteine) of what I am trying to say - its the story of a dear friend of our family, a man to me whom had always seemed ancient and just stayed that way from the time my memories begin until my 20s when he died...

He had always been a heavy smoker, and was told in his 80s that he would die within 18months. His wife was desparate for him to give up, just to get a few months longer... so he tried. He got irritable and mean and very very sick. He went to the doctor, and the doctor told him to keep smoking. The doctor said the withdrawal would kill him much quicker than smoking would at this point in his life. The doctor said "you enjoy smoking, so take back your quality of life and enjoy the last year or so with your wife". So our friend took up smoking again, and was the kind gentle man he had always been and travelled with his wife and lasted nearly two years.

I don't know how helpful or unhelpful this post is to you... and if we were talking about younger people then I would absolutely endorse the family and health professionals helping the "habit-kicking".

But these people are in their 80s and this is their choice and severe or total restrictions will change their quality of life and that should be considered also.

I don't have the answer and am only providing a different persepctive from those in this thread.
The woman I first mention in this post had no right to kill herself the way she did but ultimately that was her choice as an addict. But she was not yet 40. I can only reiterate that despite the previous couple of paragraphs, I do understand the evils of alcohol and the anger and pain and grieving that accompanies watching a person close to you drink to excess.

I wish you, Silver family, the easiest path through this thorny patch of your lives. Choices we make for our parents seem to be harder in some ways, than the ones we make for our children.
Arohanui
Raven

[rocknrollgirl]

Mr. Silver,
You have gotten a lot of good caring advice. I have been thinking about you all day. I hope you find the answer that is best for your family.

[carpaltunnel]

Silvers,
I read your letter, then skipped to the bottom without reading more,to post this, so probably you've heard it before. You're not the only ones to deal with ancient addicts. (If this were not so serious I would try to make a joke out of a new branch of AA for Ancient Addicts).
My darling husband's mother passed away last year at 96, still addicted to the tranquilizers that no one (that is her new doctor, after we understood that the old one was just writing perscriptions to get her out of his office) could get her unhooked from.
Last week the nurse in my doctor's office (she and I shared the same doc) told me that her mother in law was an alcoholic in her 80's. I guess the medical care is so good these days that they can last a long time, too.

My advice to her and to you is to learn about AlAnon, so you can protect yourself and them without wearing yourself out. My prayers are with you.