Landis Hearing

[Zen]

What puzzles me is that the substance in question is testosterone. From my limited knowledge, testosterone is not that much of a performance factor. EPO, yes. I find the discrepancies in the way the samples were handled to be questionable. I think the U.S. Anti-Doping Association want a head to mount and hang on the wall. I also blame the French. I blame the French for everything

[sklarewc]

Well, I have to say Floyd's actions during the arbitration make me think he's clearly capable of cheating. The report in Velonews.com included a link to the message he posted about LeMond, in which he acted as if LeMond had been the perpetrator of the abuse instead of the victim of sexual abuse. . . referring to LeMond's dark secret and things that would "damage his character severely . . . However, if he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things that you will wish you didn't know and unfortunately I will have entered the race to the bottom which is now in progress."
Oh, please--blame the victim. That, in addition to his "business manager"'s pathetic attempt to intimidate Lemond, cause me to lose all respect for Floyd. . . not to mention the lab results. Sure, Lance hated the French labs and all the intrusive testing he had to go through, but think about it--Lance's tests never came back positive.

[PinkBike]

first, there is no way a "dose of testosterone" will improve your performance the next day. even if he did it, it would have been over a period of time in order to get the benefits and all his previous and subsequent tests would have shown traces of it. the test for determining the testosterone/epitestosterone level is supposed to be very accurate, but there are cases of gross errors. i think most notably is the young rider (age 18) who was stripped of his license after a positive result, then fought the result and lost repeatedly until they found the same results in his younger 15-year-old brother.
second, dont believe a word greg lemond says. the man has totally lost it. he was an arrogant little rich boy at the start, a notorious whiner, and now is just bitter. he seems to deride any american who may be better than he was. he was good, and good for american cycling, but he is a blame-er - if he hadnt got shot, if hineault hadnt reneged, yadayadayada. the abuse? did it even happen?
third, lance always said its impossible to prove a negative, as in "i didnt do it, but how can i possibly prove it?" i dont like the guilty until proven innocent scenario, but i also dont like the defenses they present. focussing on the lab mistakes seems to be the lawyerly tactic of "throw everything out there and get 'em all confused about the details." id rather see a defense that consisted of the accused standing proud and saying No, I Never Once Doped In Any Way, and provide ALL the career test results before and after to cast doubt on this one sample. i used to think Tyler was innocent because he protested so strongly and was so believable, but the puerta scandal kind of shot that down. i respect david millar and stefano garzelli who admitted their mistakes and served their suspensions quietly then came back to race.
fourth, did floyd do it? i dont know, i hope not, his legal defense team has a good presentation about all the lab testing errors, which should be enough to acquit him, but WADA and the UCI are very proud and stubborn and dont seem to ever favor the athletes over "their system". which is one reason to hope he wins even if he did do it - to make WADA and UCI more accountable and change some much needed procedures (like having the A and B tests done by the same lab). i would at one time have said floyd couldnt have done it based on his sincere denials, but tyler ruined my trust in people's innocence. i used to think "why would he be protesting so hard at such expense if he was guilty," but theres a LOT at stake pending the outcome so i dont hold with that so much any more. less gullible, more cynical, i guess.
finally, floyd, i hope you didnt do it. please convince me and everybody else. restore my faith in you.

[snapdragen]

Well said PinkBike!

I still want to believe Floyd.

[sklarewc]

Wow. I just don't understand these reactions (including "I always blame the French"--what's up with that?). Why do so many people *want* to believe Floyd? Here's what he posted on the internet after Lemond told him he'd been abused:

>>" I did, as I used to do for some people, call GL privately to discuss some comments that he made about me and my situation. . . What Greg actualy divulged to me is what he does not want to talk about. . . Unfortunately, the facts that he divulged to me in the hour which he spoke and gave no opportunity for me to do the same, would damage his character severely and I would rather not do what has been done to me. However, if he ever opens his mouth again and the word Floyd comes out, I will tell you all some things that you will wish you didn't know and unfortunately I will have entered the race to the bottom which is now in progress. For the record, I don't know Greg, and have no more respect for Greg than I have for people who go through life blaming others for all of their problems. You are not a victim of others Greg, you are a pathetic human who believes that if others didn't cheat (not sure about you) you would be the President and all the peasants would bow to your command. Join reality with the rest of us who win some and lose some and keep on smiling."<<
Nice. And you think it matters whether Lemond was abused or not? You don't like Lemond because you think he was a spoiled rich kid??
As for the effects of taking testerosterone, this is what came up in yesterday's hearing (from Velonews):

>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<

[Zen]

Wow. I just don't understand these reactions (including "I always blame the French"--what's up with that?).

"What's up with that" is sarcasm.
_________________________________________________________

Originally Posted by sklarewc
>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<
___________________________________________________________

How is this compelling? It's nothing but anecdotal. And from a drug user, no less.

[Zen]

>>Friday's most compelling testimony - at least from a cycling standpoint - came from longtime low-level pro Joe Papp, who was called by USADA to detail his use of a wide assortment of doping products, including synthetic testosterone. The crux of Papp's testimony was the notion that testosterone can have a beneficial day-to-day impact for bike racers, and that you can easily hide that use from drug testers, two ideas the Landis side disputed in their opening statement on Monday.
"There was a significant improvement in recovery. There was no cumulative fatigue when I used [testosterone]," claimed Papp, during direct question from USADA lawyer Matt Barnett. <<

How is this compelling? It's nothing but anecdotal.

[KnottedYet]

I've known people whose identity was wrapped up in their need to blame others or to portray themselves as the noble victim. I saw an interview with LeMond a couple years ago, and immediately thought he was one of those.

*Everyone* has a story, and everyone needs to survive their story or it will make them bitter and rule their lives.

If I was in Floyd's shoes faced with LeMond's machinations, I'd probably say the same thing. Only in a more polite way...

[sklarewc]

Ok, let's see, PinkBike thinks Lemond is a blamer, and ZenCentury "blames the French for everything," and no one thinks Landis's post and attempts at witness intimidation reflect anything about his character? And "what's up with that?" is viewed as offensive sarcasm--?
Whoa, sorry, I still have to say, I don't understand these reactions.
BTW, the "most compelling" part in my last post was a quote from Velonews, not my personal view. I suspect there was more to the testimony than the short quote that was included.

[xeney]

Nobody was telling you your sarcasm was offensive; she was explaining that "I always blame the French" was sarcasm.

I think it's possible to think the whole thing is a mess and everybody is coming off as pretty shady here ... you don't have to take sides. Greg LeMond is nuts -- remember last year when he claimed that Lance Armstrong had threatened his life and his wife's life? Did anyone actually believe that? I didn't. Just the fact that he has somehow involved himself here as a witness, when he cannot possibly have anything first-hand to report, tells me that he is looking for attention. And he comes off as a liar.

But then, so does Landis, honestly. I really wanted to believe him but I have found him unconvincing for a while now. And posting what he posted about LeMond was so stupid that I am finding myself not really caring if he doped or not, because I've lost all respect ... but do I honestly think he was picking on a poor child abuse victim? Not really; I think he and his team figured out what other people have also figured out -- that is, that LeMond is mentally unstable and will say just about any ridiculous thing to get himself in the spotlight -- and tried to nip it in the bud, not because they really feared that LeMond had damaging information (how could he possibly?) but because they feared he'd make a big ruckus.

Which he did, and the Landis team stupidly made it worse. I am finding it really hard to care anymore about men's pro cycling.

[KnottedYet]

Anybody got some good links to women's pro cycling?

[missymaya]

That last point you made xeney is exactly how I feel. It's gotten so out of control, I just don't want to hear it anymore. I would like to hear about more positive men's and women's pro cycling. It doesn't even need to be pro cycling, just good cycling.

[Kalidurga]

Anybody got some good links to women's pro cycling?

I don't have any links to women's cycling, but I'll say this again: My new team to watch is Slipstream. Go dope-free argyle, go!

[Eden]

http://www.victorycycling.com/
http://www.procyclingtour.com/pct_cyclists_women.cfm
http://www.womencyclists.com/
http://www.usacycling.org/bios/index.php
http://www.teamcolavita.com/roster-main.htm
http://www.t-mobile-team.com/tmo_tea...t/pages/894414
http://www.webcorcycling.com/

[KnottedYet]

Thank you for the Slipstream link! Loooove that argyle! And you can get one of their classy argyle jerseys: http://www.slipstreamsports.com/fun.get.html

I heard about them on NPR, but didn't know their team name. Thank you! Now I'll want to follow them, too.

And Eden, thanks for the women's links! Now I've got to choose a couple women's teams to follow (besides Group Health, of course!)

And "DopersSuck" website has plenty of anti-doping goodies (even pink socks) for those of us who wish to voice our displeasure: http://doperssuck.typepad.com/doperssuck/