Should Men be allowed in a Women's Forum?

[Wahine]

FWIW-Mr.Silver has done nothing but be a gentleman.

Now as to the topic at hand, I *had* (note-past tense ) mixed feelings, as I think others have already posted about. Basically I worried this wonderful forum would become co-ed.

After reading these very thoughtful post, especially those by Kitsune06 and HipGnosis6, I must concur with what they wrote. And I further believe, as has been previously stated, no one should ever be discriminated against.

This is exactly what I love about this forum. Not only are there many very bright women here but also women of integrity who are willing to say what they stand up and are also willing to say that they have been swayed to a different opinion. I takes guts to put out a post like the one BMO3 did. I have nothing but respect for you.

[mimitabby]

This is exactly what I love about this forum. Not only are there many very bright women here but also women of integrity who are willing to say what they stand up and are also willing to say that they have been swayed to a different opinion. I takes guts to put out a post like the one BMO3 did. I have nothing but respect for you.

ME TOO! what amazing, passionate, compassionate, profound posts!

Mr Silver can't make that go away, nor can trolling men!
We have nothing to fear, my dears, TE is going to stay TE.. Only certain kinds of guys are going to post here and not get chased off. Mr Silver
is one of them. It's because he's sensitive and genuinely interested in conversation with us.
If he was womanizing, challenging or something else we didn't like, we'd fry him in his own juices. Any one of the gals who has posted on this thread could do this VERY well.

You guys are all great, I'm so glad I found this board.

[roguedog]

Hear, hear.. ditto, ditto to what Hip, BMo3 and everyone else who is pro open forum.

Don't like discrimination of any sort..

Also, I enjoy the diversity of viewpoints. Makes life more interesting as long as we are all courteous, open minded and don't take things personally. Hey! I read one of the most informative articles on shaving legs on one of the other bike forums and it was written by a man! Plus I found it amusing and fascinating...

Unfortunately in my experience, being rude, condescending, belittling and all manner of other "making others feel less than" are open to all races, genders, sexual orientations, religions etc. You get the idea.

It is the behavior that we might discourage not a person's physical make up, religious or philosophical viewpoint or whatever.

Well.. maybe people who don't like good food and wine/alcohol.. I could maybe make an exception there

[Irulan]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.

best response.

[Irulan]

I think banning men is as dumb as secret forums.
I think it was said, how are you going to enforce it, what do you do about the lurkers, and how do you know that there aren't men posting anyway that you don't know are men?

If they can't handle the talk ( ie tampons and other women's issues) they can stay away, and if they troll or are rude, let the moderators deal with it, that's what they are there for. Otherwise they should be welcomed, or at least not run off by seperatist attitudes.

my issues with secret forums is that I think they are a bad idea for the following reasons: 1. It shows the moderators can't control their boards and 2. a lot of potential contributing members are lost because they don't know it's there, or they have to prove themselves to become a member.

I like how they do it at MTBR and RBR, women's boards, open to men, heavily moderated, offenders get one warning and then they are banned. There are great guys who contribute to those boards.

back to lurking.

[lauraelmore1033]

I would point out, just for the sake of being that person who points out useless bits of trivia when people are arguing, that estrogen is not the exclusive property of women. Men and women have varying proportions of both estrogen and testosterone (a fact I learned recently when tests revealed that my testosterone levels were higher than they ought to be...). So it is not inappropriate for a man to be a member of Team Estrogen, since he actually does have some...

[lph]

I would point out, just for the sake of being that person who points out useless bits of trivia when people are arguing, that estrogen is not the exclusive property of women. Men and women have varying proportions of both estrogen and testosterone (a fact I learned recently when tests revealed that my testosterone levels were higher than they ought to be...). So it is not inappropriate for a man to be a member of Team Estrogen, since he actually does have some...

aaaah - so good to see someone else being a trivia geek... (Anyone else fascinated that thing about ring finger length and testosterone?)

My viewpoint has been stated more eloquently by many of you further up but anyhoo: there are many reasons that I was very happy to find this forum. I don't post a great deal, but I like having the chance. There are a few subjects that I'd prefer to discuss only with women, but they're fairly obvious sensitive subjects like saddle sores or other bodily issues and functions. There are other subjects that aren't equally sensitive but where I probably write in a different manner knowing that I'm addressing only women, things that touch onto our position in society or our social role. On this forum I know men could be reading it anyway, but the difference is in who I am "inviting to join the discussion".

That being said about the good points on having a forum for women, I have no problem with Mr. Silver being here, or with him being invited in the first place. He seems like a really sweet guy and a most excellent hubby :-), and he certainly doesn't seem the type to butt in with a male viewpoint on a sensitive issue for women.

I think TE is better for being that much more open, and it doesn't change the fact that TE is a forum for discussing cycling for women - and should stay so.

Lastly - while I respect that some of you are uncomfortable with his presence I find it a little sad that you seem to be questioning his motives for being here, or for posting x amount. I assume he just enjoys the company, like the rest of us, and from what I've seen he has been nothing but supportive and enthusiastic. "He ain't bad just cos he's a guy"

[jeannierides]

Hoo boy... this is bound to get me in trouble, but I just can't keep my mouth shut.

So... the opposing side, while nobody's being horrible and demanding a ban on all men, seems to be saying "we're uncomfortable with a man in our 'locker room'. We deserve our own space."

Just the other day, I was witness to a really shameful scene. I was touring a gym that I was considering joining, and while I was there there was a sudden and very large stir. One of the members had found out that one of the trainers there was *gasp* a lesbian, and the idea that this woman might see her naked in the locker rooms made her uncomfortable. She had never been uncomfortable before, but once she found out that someone there was different from her, she had anxiety and fear.

I'm not sure how your fear and discomfort of men, even when they're showing themselves to be behaving appropriately, is any different. Inappropriate behavior on the forums is just that - inappropriate, no matter who it's coming from, and needs to be dealt with on an issue-by-issue basis and not on one that's discriminatory and originates in fear. Where I don't feel discomfited by Mr. Silver's presence here, I have to tip my hat to Kitsune for being the first to say that banning him simply because he's a man is in fact SEXIST and a form of discrimination.

Part of what I think makes TE different is that we don't discriminate. We all work to make everyone feel welcome, whether they're hardcore roadies or older ladies on their cruisers but right now we're talking about who's NOT welcome! I'm a little shocked by it; we are a fairly diverse group and I've never witnessed anything worse than a couple of snotty comments.

We don't have serious problems with harassment or with men invading our space; we don't hang a sign on our door that says "NO BOYZ", and therefore it's no fun to come bug us. Those few that do show up are met with little interest at best. The day we lay down the law is the day we ask for people to protest our negative and exclusionary behavior.

<<<what she said.

I couldn't (didn't) say it better...

[emily_in_nc]

Just chiming in here to agree with those who have argued for lack of discrimination on TE. I enjoy Mr. Silver's posts, and I don't think his gender should be cause for banning him (or other respectful men who might come here in the future) from the forum. I do enjoy the mostly female group here, but Mr. Silver does not seem interested in discussions of female anatomy, diva cup or the like. He's discussing weight loss and posting supportive comments on some of the off-topic threads. I just don't see the harm in it. I'd like to think of us as an inclusive community, not exclusive. We don't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation here, why gender? It's a bit of a slippery slope to me....

Emily

[Thorn]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality. If a person drops by, sees that personality and wants to play, who are you to turn them away just because they're male? Perhaps, just perhaps, what makes this forum differernt from others is that wonderful mix of world society that we have. Diversity is a good thing.

As others have said, the personality of the forum will self regulate. If anyone (even cranky old me) falls too far from the personality, the forum will self-regulate.



Disclaimer: I have spent most of my working life in a male dominated field. Just because I may have been discriminated for being female does not mean I have the right to discriminate against someone for being male. Needless to say, I don't believe gender is a reason to moderate a person off this or any other forum. And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

[Veronica]

And, gee, how can anyone take offense at Mr. Silver? He's bared his soul and has us all at least thinking about eating better.

I'm NOT thinking about eating better. I want another cookie!

V.

[Trek420]

Like I can say it any better than Hip & Co, but, just to add 2cents to a million dollar pot...

Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate. While this forum may be predominately women, look at the breadth of backgrounds. We have the full political spectrum, we're international, we have stay at home moms, doctors, nurses, engineers, and research scientists, gay, straight, single, married, divorced, rich, poor...if there is a segment of society, we've probably got it.

It is that diversity that gives this board its wonderful personality.

No you did say it better.

"Forums have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate...."

I'm just asking is all....please don't kill the messenger...just a question:

In the top left hand corner of your screen ladies and gentlemen you see "women's cycling discussion forums".

We are it, but we don't own it.

Two keystrokes and we're a "cycling forum".

I'm just asking is all, what do you think of that?

Would we still "have a personality and tone that is the aggregate of the people who participate." as Thorn so well said.

I hope so. I was after all the 2nd person on the board to welcome Mr. Silver.

[doc]

Nothing new here, just my 'vote'

Discrimination s*cks. I won't be party to it.

Anyone of any gender should, and hoepfully will, be banned for abusive or seriously inappropriate comments (NOT just varying opinions). All other comments and the people who make them are welcome.

Anyone reading or joining this forum knows it is slanted for women and issues that relate specifically to them. If you have a useful, respectful, thoughtful, funny,(......) comment, by all means throw it in whoever you are.

[Duck on Wheels]

I'm still kinda on the fence on this one, and therefore glad to see that discussions are ongoing and (not least!) amicable. Seems like we all acknowledge one anothers points of view, which feels right to me. It's part of what TE, at its best, has felt like all along.

So here's my acknowledgement to both sides:

On the one hand -- I've experienced TE as a place I expected to feel at home from the get go because it was a women's cycling forum. That, and the TE rules of behaviour (not sure whether these are published anywhere, but sister Trek420 explained them to me as motivation to join) such as acceptance for (especially women) cyclists at all levels, supportive and informative response to whatever questions one has -- no question to embarrassing or too stupid or too naive or ... whatever. Also that we tiptoe around divisive issues, but without totally hiding them, just trying not to insult one another yet recognizing our differences on all kinds of levels. And I must say, the fact that it's a women's forum goes some ways to making those rules more credible, and possibly easier to "police" ...? Because, whatever I may think of a strict biological sexual divide (see below), I do recognize that there tends to be a cultural one.

On the other hand -- Most of the few men who've participated openly and actively for any length of time (and certainly Mr. Silver and my cousin Maury) have found themselves right at home abiding by those rules. In fact, I can readily see where Mr. Silver would be attracted to our forum, given his cycling goals. C'mon! We've had our laughs about some of those testosterone-enriched fora where every other guy is posting about how embarrassing it is to be passed by a woman cyclist! How supportive would such a place be to a guy who's training to lose weight and keep up with his cycling wife? Furthermore, recognizing and accepting all other differences but drawing the line according to a more or less arbitrary biological definition (I won't go into details, but in my line of research we question the reality of a binary division into two mutually exclusive sexes) ... well, isn't that a bit inconsistent?

So how can we balance between these two sides of the fence? Could we continue to call ourselves a women's cycling forum, but accept men on an invitation only basis? And should we maybe have a set of rules, formulated politely and in positive terms ("On TE we always ..." rather than "On TE we do not ...")? That way we can still "out" the occasional "troll". We're not as likely to get a rush of men applicants, either as positive seekers or as web "pirates" out to break into any place that tries to exclude them. We can also admonish, or worst case exclude, anybody who behaves rudely.

Or then again ... maybe we just let this discussion take its course and then, wherever we land, try to go on without making any changes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Crankin]

I am uncomfortable with the thought that someone would be uncomfortable with a respectful male posting here! Yes, there are some "private" topics discussed here, but frankly, anyone can see them. They might not post in reply, but they could be reading everything. There have been a few things that I wouldn't post about, because I don't want someone googling my name and seeing my discussion of an "intimate" problem. I don't mind if others discuss whatever, but you never know who is reading the boards.
My husband is a lot like Mr. Silver. The thought that some would want to ban him is a little dismaying. He doesn't want to sit around and talk about Diva cups, etc, but he might have something interesting to say about cycling, weight loss, etc. I know he went to the saddle thread when I was having all of my issues this summer.
Let's keep this group diverse and inclusionary (is that a word?). Unless someone of either gender is being inappropriate, they should be able to post here.