Steering with your Hips

[telegirl]

Does this mean no Salsa Bike Dancing, Velo?

Yes, I should use "cornering" and not steering - you are right that there is a definite difference. Again, I think that what I need is a coach WITH me, since I have read everything and just can't seem to master the concept of cornering downhill on tight switchbacks- I can practice what you are saying, but it just doesn't seem to stick. The hip mantra, however, seemed to help me quite a bit on the flatter, but more windy trails....

You really ARE a teacher, aren't you Velo? Who else would be able to put up with this ineptness with such patience???

[Mimosa]

If you got the technique then in my opinion it is just a matter of 'doing it' at high speed (but a flat road). For example, this year I did one real road race at a local club (after 10 years no racing). I was just passing by during training when the girls doing the ride almost pulled me onto the course to join in (they only had 10 competing so every girl was one extra). When the pack hit the first corner I almost wet my pants because we were going so fast and I really pulled the brakes way to hard. Still I knew I could do better and the next corner I eased up on the brakes and I made it through without running of the course The bike just stuck to the tarmac though my belly did some flip-flops. Gradually through the course I got some confidence back but still fear hit when we came up a curve at a really high speed. But that's more of another problem, one of the reasons I stopped al those years ago is that I hit the tarmac really hard a couple of times in 1 season and I really grew (and still have) a fear for going to fast into the corner (I still carry the scars to prove that).

What I am trying to say, you can't expect that fast downhill turns are just a matter of technique (sure that's where it all starts). Part of it is also between the ears, the more confident you are that the bike will stick to the tarmac, the more you will lean into the curve with your body and the more you will grow into it. It takes time and a lot of trying before you grow into it.

On a side note, when doing tonights training I tried to see how I go into the curve (which technique do I use). And I came to the conclusion that indeed it must have something to do with weight distribution. I think 'go left' and my body shifts (upperbody leans over to the left) and the bike goes that way. And allways look where you are going, look for the point where you want to end, that 'automatically' balances out the weight distribution.

[velogirl]

Does this mean no Salsa Bike Dancing, Velo?

Funny you mention dancing. When I teach this, the first thing I do is have everyone get off the bike and stand next to it with on hand on the saddle and one on the bar. Then we do this sweeping hip grind (can't describe it) from side to side. When I teach the women, they all get it immediately. When I teach the men, they kinda nod from side to side -- no swivel in the hips with them!

BTW, the two exercises I use to teach steering I call the Bump & Grind and Hula Hips.

[Crankin]

No wonder I can't corner a right turn on a descent... you have to be in the drops?????? It's a miracle if I can get in the drops on a straight road, going a moderate speed, when no cars are around. I am hopeless. I have the leg down thing, trying to look with my head, which is not natural for me. I am not sure how I can lean my bike right if I am leaning left.
Oy. After 6 years I am still a newbie.

[velogirl]

No wonder I can't corner a right turn on a descent... you have to be in the drops?????? It's a miracle if I can get in the drops on a straight road, going a moderate speed, when no cars are around. I am hopeless. I have the leg down thing, trying to look with my head, which is not natural for me. I am not sure how I can lean my bike right if I am leaning left.
Oy. After 6 years I am still a newbie.

For leaning, I always visualize pushing my bike in one direction and pulling my body in the other. You're actually pushing the bike away from you.

Now, the drops. If you don't feel comfortable in the drops, it might be bike fit. But if your fit is good, you should start practicing. Take 5 minutes each ride and get into the drops (on a flat road). Start increasing that time incrementally.

Regarding looking, try this sometime. When you're in your car, try looking at the road right in front of your hood. See how uncomfortable that feels? We look down the road when we drive. We should do the same thing when we ride. Don't look down at the front of the bike. Your bike will roll over 99% of what might be in the road (stones, cracks, holes).

[DebW]

VG, can you clarify some things.

For steering with hips, are you talking about rotating the hips in the vertical or horizontal plane?

I googled countersteering a couple weeks ago and mostly found stuff about motorcycles, describing how, for a right turn, the handlebars need to go left to initiate the lean of the turn. Is that true for a bike as well, and at what point in your description do the handlebars move, however slightly?

[velogirl]

For steering, the hips move in a pendulum motion -- I think that would be considered both vertical and horizontal.

When you push the inside bar, it actually turns the bar/wheel to the outside (just like the descriptions you see for motorcycling). That's the counter part of counter-steering. So, if you're turning right, you push the right hand and the wheel actually turns to the left just a tiny bit.

[DebW]

For steering, the hips move in a pendulum motion -- I think that would be considered both vertical and horizontal.

Where's the fulcrum of the pendulum?

[aicabsolut]

Yeah that's right.. While I'm not great in practice cornering fast yet, I understand the physics (helps to have dated a guy who raced motorcycles). Though on a horse, turning right means leaning left ..this is what messes me up.

If you turn the wheel right on a right hand turn, then you're going to skid and wiggle and hydroplane around because turning the wheel right keeps the bottom of the tire more on the road. Pushing a little on the right bar puts more weight on the inside of the tire, you roll to the edge of it, and that plus the lean is how you turn rather than steering that you have to do at a slow pace (when you're slow, you don't have enough speed to keep you upright in a lean and you can't create enough friction with the tire to keep it from sliding out from under you). That's why motorcycle tires on racing bikes have tread that wraps around the sides pretty far. The faster you go, the more you have to lean to make the turn. And yeah, when sitting on anything it helps to watch your line.

Now just to get the execution down..

[Mimosa]

But if your fit is good, you should start practicing. Take 5 minutes each ride and get into the drops (on a flat road).

That's why my trainer allways used to say "Get your hands of the top and put then in the drops. Otherwise your body will never learn to ride like that."

Tonight it was wet (and thus a bit slippery on those narrow tires) outside so I rode most of the way with my hands in the drops because then you are more stable and have more control over the bike.

[Crankin]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions. It's more that the whole physics of handling the bike feels totally different to me. If I am going straight, on a flat, it's fine. But the thought of cornering on a steep descent in that position really scares me because everytime I descend I feel like my bike is sliding out from under me. Now I know why. I actually have been working on this for the last couple of weeks, but riding time is now cut down a lot.
I will keep practicing!

Robyn

[aicabsolut]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions.

Robyn

Is your seat in the right position?
You can get little wedges that fit in the hoods, bringing the brake levers in some, so that shorter fingers can reach them better from the drops. I assume your bars are WSD bars? They usually have a shorter reach to the brakes from all positions. So if you don't, start with those first. Reach of the brakes from the drops doesn't have to do with the 38cm width of the bars but how the hoods are positions and the geometry of the drops. I got some 38 WSD bars put on yesterday (was riding in standard 42s that came on the bike--I could shift from the drops but not brake. It's the different geometry overall versus the narrowness that made the difference that way). If you've got women's bars, go with the wedges.

If you're too squished in and your seat is in the right position, then maybe you can flip your stem over to get the bars up higher so you aren't lying on your knees in the drops.

[Mimosa]

... but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions.

Do you have short reach break handles? If not, why did your LBS tell you about them? A lot of women suffer from the same 'reach' problem en decided to change to those break handles.

But then every new bike feels different, just don't worry to much and try to make as much miles to feel comfortable.

[velogirl]

Velo, I just spent a good deal of $ of a custom Kuota bike. I have 38 cm bars (flat on the top) and I don't know if I need anything smaller. I do try to ride in the drops for a little while on every ride; but I feel weird, like I am lying down almost. I can't explain it. I can barely take my hands off of the bar to drop down, it just plain scares me. I am comfortable when I get there and can easily change gears, but I feel a like my ability to really squeeze the brakes isn't as good. I can reach them, but it's not the same as in the other positions. It's more that the whole physics of handling the bike feels totally different to me. If I am going straight, on a flat, it's fine. But the thought of cornering on a steep descent in that position really scares me because everytime I descend I feel like my bike is sliding out from under me. Now I know why. I actually have been working on this for the last couple of weeks, but riding time is now cut down a lot.
I will keep practicing!

Robyn

Robyn, I don't think this is a fit issue and I don't think you need a new bar. I think it's an issue of becoming more comfortable riding in different positions. You're become very comfortable doing it "your way," so now it doesn't feel correct doing it any other way.

It also sounds to me like you need to improve your core strength so you feel more confident moving from position to position on the bike.

How long have you been riding a road bike, Robyn?

When I first started riding, I remember a friend (who's a great cyclist) telling me I should descend in the drops. I thought he was crazy! I didn't care if every other cyclist in the world descended in the drops -- I was different and I wasn't even willing to try it. Of course, over time, I realized he was correct and I tried it, and once I became more comfortable with the position I realized he was correct.