Venting - way OT & alittle wordy....

[Brandy]

Don't think CyclChyk deserved that. And I agree with Veronica. I know plenty of parents who agree with that too.

When you have to state in your post that you're sorry if anyone is offended or that offending isn't your intention...you pretty much know you're going to offend some people and you should expect some heated replies.

[jobob]

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even.

[snapdragen]

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even.

Yes! If I hear another "Sunshine, you're making mommy very sad. You really are making me very very sad" while Sunshine is flailing about the grocery store isle at full volume, I may demand parental licensing.

[betagirl]

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

Perfect.

Ok here I come with my behaviorism hat. Yes, our good friends BF Skinner, Ivan Pavlov, Watson, etc. All behavior is learned, period, through various forms of reinforcement and punishment. That reinforcement can be subtle, to the point the parent doesn't even realize what they're doing. When you're dealing with children, they don't have the cognitive structures in place that adults do, so yes "kids will be kids." That also makes them very black and white in their thinking. But they learn from parents, watching other kids get away or not get away with things, other parents, teachers, etc. how to act. A baby doesn't come into the world with these bad behaviors, so they come from somewhere. There are some genetic contributions, but it comes down to environment as to how those genetics are shaped.

I don't watch "Nanny 9-11" or whatever the heck it's called. But one day it was on and before I could change channels I saw the intro. The kids were crazy and yelling and mom was yelling and screaming right at them. Where did the kids learn that yelling and screaming was acceptable? Probably from mom. But she certainly was maintaining it. When it gets that bad, it becomes very difficult to get to the point the behavior stops. There's a little thing called an "extinction burst" where the kid (or adult for that matter) increases the intensity/duration/frequency of the behavior you're trying to stop. So the tantrums become exponentially worse for example. If mom or dad caves, the child learns "ok I need to have a complete meltdown to get what I want." Start the cycle again to try to stop the behavior, get to the extinction burst which will probably be even worse than the first one. Mom or dad caves....rinse and repeat. It's that extinction burst where a lot of parents can't take it, because it's really bad a lot of the time. While I can sit here and be scientific about it, I can certainly see why you'd want to give in.

Of course I've simplified humans down to behaviorism theory. But underneath all the layers of complexity of our lives, this is what is the cause of behavior, or lack of behavior. In my opinion anyway.

[Dogmama]

I work at a major research university & one of my departments is Family Studies. Graduate students with children like to let them run wild in the offices. A secretary posted the following sign:


Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.

[Veronica]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day. My "kids" are a little bit older, 8 - 10. I can definitely tell those who have been able to get mom and dad to cave with their behavior. They try it with me - and it gets them nowhere. It's easy for me to be consistent with the rules for 6.5 hours a day, even with 30 kids at a time. It's a lot harder to be that way 24 hours a day.

I'm not so judgemental of the parents with the wailing young kids - sub 4 years old. Anything can set them off!

It's the poor behavior of the older ones that really gets me, allowing them to play by running up and down aisles, pushing around adults, yelling at each other. Essentially playing as if they were outside. They are old enough to know what is appropriate to the setting.

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

[Brandy]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day.

Not the same. At all.

[maillotpois]

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

Oh liar liar pants (possibly quite literally) on fire.

[mimitabby]

I had two unruly sons. I did not let them run wild in any stores. Okay, we always let them try out all the bikes and stuff at toys R us.I figured that store was fair game!!
but in the grocery store, etc, they were firmly locked to me
at all times. That's also why i stopped at 2 children; I could hold one with each hand.
I did not allow them to harass animals of any kind.
It can be done, raising children to respect others. There's no excuse for the behavior you described. Now sometimes my kids were louder than one might like, and that's where I say kids will be kids.. Sometimes we'd just join them.

They were not allowed to play in the street. and we live on a dead end.

[lph]

I had two unruly sons. I did not let them run wild in any stores. Okay, we always let them try out all the bikes and stuff at toys R us.I figured that store was fair game!!
but in the grocery store, etc, they were firmly locked to me
at all times. That's also why i stopped at 2 children; I could hold one with each hand.
I did not allow them to harass animals of any kind.
It can be done, raising children to respect others. There's no excuse for the behavior you described. Now sometimes my kids were louder than one might like, and that's where I say kids will be kids.. Sometimes we'd just join them.

They were not allowed to play in the street. and we live on a dead end.

That just made me think about something - having my son has in general raised my tolerance for noise and running around. My son still runs around in the store, but now he's racing to get whatever I've sent him out to get, as fast as he can. He'll still tear down the hill afterwards zigzagging between other people, but that's because in his head he's Superman or somebody right then. I guess I might have found that annoying pre-kid.

So I understand a lot more of kids' basic need to burn off energy, but instead I try to focus on the things that are important to me. Don't WHINE. Ask properly if you want something. Be polite to strangers. Say thank-you. Never harass animals, not even the smallest ones, and don't approach dogs that are tied up. Stay out of the road. Watch out for cyclists
(But by all means, go climb on the neighbours shed if you like as long as I can't see you... )

[CyclChyk]

d Oh and one more thing...

What the heck is up with the stupid parents that has a kid who is crying their eyes out (nails on a chalk board but my heart breaks when I hear it). I mean really, do you honestly think that hitting them and shouting "I told you to shut up or we are going home RIGHT NOW!" is gonna make them shut up??? I don't know about you guys but I think it would make me cry more............. And they know you aren't gonna take them home!

DramaDramaDrama

Geez......
p.s. Brandy - something tells me you are one of the good moms.

p.s.s. Kitsune - very well said!

p.s.s.s. Python & Salsabike - I like your thought process

I could go on but this is getting wordy again....

[Kitsune06]

Really, honestly, I don't think any of the women here are the sorts to "never say no" etc. Biking etc are sports of discipline, and a woman with discipline tends to pass it on, consciously or not, to her kids.

(There were a bunch of things I was going to add to this thread as I thought about it today.)

I guess the 1st is that some kids really need special attention. I think most parents do the best they can with what they know- the trouble is, too many parents are kids themselves. It's a pity that biology makes it harder for people in their mid to late 30s to have kids, because I think by then you have a better idea of what's going on than in your 20s. This is mostly wishful thinking, though. My little sister had the same sort of parenting early on that I did. I was a sensitive kid and took a lot of things to heart. Mom needed just give me *the look* and I'd stop, and feel *bad*. My sis, on the other hand, was eventually diagnosed with "ODD" (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). Spanking did nothing, Verbal repremands did nothing, time-outs did nothing. It makes me sad to say that when I told my dad that I was upset because she got away with far more than I ever could, he told me "That's because we still have expectations for you." But I know they did the best they could.

The 2nd is that maybe I came off as harsh saying "Don't teach your kids with guilt". Honestly, I'm pretty sure that kits are ego-centrically minded until at least 8. The world revolves around them, and rightly so, because while they're busy developing and taking in all the new things around them, there's just too much to do to try to think about someone *else*, too, yet. Mindfulness of others comes into play later, when they begin to socially develop, and that can be anywhere from 8-12 (or later) (I think some people never get to that stage...)

3rd, Debw: It's called vasclip. and after living in all the little rural burbs I have, and hearing all the "She's a Sr. in high school and she and her BF had an accident, etc etc" stories I have... I'm SO with you on that.
Conservatives say "The government's trying to save people from themselves!"
...if people weren't so effing stupid, they wouldn't need saving.
and, fwiw, most of the kids who had accidents, that I know of, had strict 'family values'. the hippyish kids had already heard of the importance of b/c.

[DDH]

Tuckervill, Brandy, just wanted to let you know I did go to the website Tucker posted. I read it, and like I said in my previous post, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't happen to agree.

[Python]

OK. Here's my tuppenceworth from the UK.

As a child, I was taught very quickly how to behave, especially in public. Mum (or Dad) would warn me once, warn me a second time to behave and the third time I got a smack (same applied to my brother). Neither of us have ever been in any trouble of any kind. The thing was, we were taught right from wrong, sometimes we got smacked but we had two loving parents who always made time for us, which must have been difficult for them as they had their own shop and worked long hours, also they had me quite late on in life. My brother is six years old than I am.

By saying that, Dad would take us to school in the mornings, pick us up at lunchtime, Mum would be home with lunch waiting for us (my Aunt used to work in the shop too - she and my Uncle sadly weren't blessed with children), then Dad would take us back to school and pick us up when school finished. We were taught to respect other people and their property. Even at school, if we stepped out of line we got our hands belted with a strap called a Tawse. It hurt at the time, but taught us a lesson and there was very little trouble at school.

When my kids came along, I brought them up the same way, to know right from wrong and respect other people and their property. My daughter once played me up in a store really badly, so I spanked her there and then. She never did it again. One time when we were in a restaurant (she was about 6 years old at the time), as we were about to leave, the manageress came over with a bag of sweets for my daughter and complimented us on how well-behaved she was. My daughter was, of course, delighted with the sweets (candies I think you call them). Now she's a Mum herself, she and her husband are bringing my grandson up the same way - to know right from wrong. She's a stay-at-home Mum because she believes that's where Mum's should be especially when the kiddies are little (grandson's 9 months old )

There are too many parents nowadays who really couldn't care less what their kids get up to. We see a lot of that where I live. Three year olds shouting and cursing and use "F" and "C" words and the parents (or parent) just look on and don't pull them up for it, or the parent(s) are so drunk or drugged up, they don't even know what planet they're on, never mind their kids

I don't know what it's like over the pond, but we have an awful lot of schoolgirl pregnancies here. There has been far too much foisted on kids by the media, the liberal elite with their "don't discipline your kids" and the European Human Rights Act which virtually makes hooligans untouchable - and they know it.

Kids do need discipline, but it also needs to be tempered with a lot of love and patience, something that's sadly lacking for many kids nowadays

[mimitabby]

There are too many parents nowadays who really couldn't care less what their kids get up to. We see a lot of that where I live. Three year olds shouting and cursing and use "F" and "C" words and the parents (or parent) just look on and don't pull them up for it, or the parent(s) are so drunk or drugged up, they don't even know what planet they're on, never mind their kids

OR THE PARENTS THINK IT IS CUTE!