Venting - way OT & alittle wordy....

[snapdragen]

Yay for perfect parents...I must be doing it all wrong. Society needs to watch out for these kids I'm raising.

There is always time to learn.

[Brandy]

There is always time to learn.

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents.

[snapdragen]

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents.

Good. Let's start right now. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

[SadieKate]

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

My mom, too! I learned the lesson pretty darn quickly, especially at the dentist's office. The calm statement made by "The One who must be Obeyed" was "the more still you are the faster it will be over." The English Teacher dad also ran a democratic classroom (according to him). You had full freedom of choice: do what he said or get out. We were just taught appropriate behavior for the situation or everyone went home to sit it out.

If I have one more kid plow into me at the grocery, there will be a dodge ball tournament in the isles.

[Jones]

I agree, kids should be well behaved at all times, however, my neighbors, all adults sometimes play football in the road and drivers have to wait for the play to finish before they move to the side and let traffic pass.

Kids are not the only ones being rude on multi-use paths. I have had plenty of rude adults blocking the path, veering into my way and failing to yield the right of way.

The grocery store thing I just don't get. On the one hand I think grocery shopping with my daughters is a great time to teach them about nutrition and often have them searching for the bread with out high fructose corn syrup. Because I won't by "junk" there is a fair amount of whining however, the first time my daughter went into full melt down at the store I immediately brought her home with out my purchases and do not understand why parents don't so something about their screaming, crying kids in stores and (my favorite for kids behaving badly) restaurants. A little action on the part of the parents now could save everyone huge hassles in the future.

I just have to say that no matter how well or badly behaved children are they are human and nothing like raising pets.
Jones

[Kitsune06]

Absolutely. Maybe all of the people without kids could get together and charge the big bucks to school all of us horrible parents.

Possibly, but for most of the population, it takes more effort to *not* breed than *to do so* so maybe it should be a situation like bike commuting, etc... gov't grants for not having children.
6 billion people on earth, people. When do we say 'when'?

Further, yeah, I want to *die* every time some teenageish mother is whining at her kid "Stop (doing x, y, and z) to (your brother/sister/that poor dog/cat/stranger), sweetymushypie, you're making mommy sad." ...when the kid is really, really young.
When they're younger than, say 10, everything in the world is black and white, right or wrong. There need to be definite concequences (I'm not talking physical, but what's wrong with "You get over here right now and sit down. You're going to have an X minute time out when you get home." these days?!)
Making so-and-so sad is not a concequence for *the kid*. Only when they learn guilt will that be a proper punishment, and how can it be good to teach your children with guilt?

...then again, maybe I should just stick with dogs and cats. At least when they act up, I can spray them with the water bottle and tell them "NO!" in a good, authoritative tone, without worrying about paying for therapy later.

[Tiffanie]

Wow. Bitter much? Why do you have any more right than children?

[donnambr]

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

She's cast from the same mold as my own mother. I remember so many aborted shopping trips and restaurant meals...

[lph]

Okay... heated topic, and here comes my 2 øre.

(btw, I've never been particularly fond of or good with kids in general, but I have a 9 year old son whom I adore more than anything. Even my bike )

Here goes. While I admire parents able to just abort a shopping trip when little so-and-so has a meltdown, I never felt I had the time to do the same. If I was there, in a store, with my son, you can be sure it was because we *really* needed to buy food that very day. Lord knows I'd have left him behind if I could.

So my solution when he went insane was just say: "Too bad. I know you don't like this, but we'll be here until I'm finished" and then just ignore him. When he was older and more whiny than meltdowny I told him in advance than whining for some sweets or an ice-cream would automatically insure that he did not get it. (Which led to some very sweet hints... "oh, wow, that ice-cream looks good. Doesn't it, mommy? *big smile*")

And I can honestly say that apart from the first few tantrums he did get it, and was in general very well behaved. And he still is! He's learned that adults respond to politeness, whether he really means it or not.

And whenever I hear childless friends griping about screaming kids in stores I remind them that that kid is screaming, not because he's a spoilt brat, but because he is NOT getting whatever he wants. It's all hell to listen to, but the parents are in fact disciplining the kid right in front of your nose, and because of it will behave better another time.

[betagirl]

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

Perfect.

Ok here I come with my behaviorism hat. Yes, our good friends BF Skinner, Ivan Pavlov, Watson, etc. All behavior is learned, period, through various forms of reinforcement and punishment. That reinforcement can be subtle, to the point the parent doesn't even realize what they're doing. When you're dealing with children, they don't have the cognitive structures in place that adults do, so yes "kids will be kids." That also makes them very black and white in their thinking. But they learn from parents, watching other kids get away or not get away with things, other parents, teachers, etc. how to act. A baby doesn't come into the world with these bad behaviors, so they come from somewhere. There are some genetic contributions, but it comes down to environment as to how those genetics are shaped.

I don't watch "Nanny 9-11" or whatever the heck it's called. But one day it was on and before I could change channels I saw the intro. The kids were crazy and yelling and mom was yelling and screaming right at them. Where did the kids learn that yelling and screaming was acceptable? Probably from mom. But she certainly was maintaining it. When it gets that bad, it becomes very difficult to get to the point the behavior stops. There's a little thing called an "extinction burst" where the kid (or adult for that matter) increases the intensity/duration/frequency of the behavior you're trying to stop. So the tantrums become exponentially worse for example. If mom or dad caves, the child learns "ok I need to have a complete meltdown to get what I want." Start the cycle again to try to stop the behavior, get to the extinction burst which will probably be even worse than the first one. Mom or dad caves....rinse and repeat. It's that extinction burst where a lot of parents can't take it, because it's really bad a lot of the time. While I can sit here and be scientific about it, I can certainly see why you'd want to give in.

Of course I've simplified humans down to behaviorism theory. But underneath all the layers of complexity of our lives, this is what is the cause of behavior, or lack of behavior. In my opinion anyway.

[Dogmama]

I work at a major research university & one of my departments is Family Studies. Graduate students with children like to let them run wild in the offices. A secretary posted the following sign:


Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.

[Veronica]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day. My "kids" are a little bit older, 8 - 10. I can definitely tell those who have been able to get mom and dad to cave with their behavior. They try it with me - and it gets them nowhere. It's easy for me to be consistent with the rules for 6.5 hours a day, even with 30 kids at a time. It's a lot harder to be that way 24 hours a day.

I'm not so judgemental of the parents with the wailing young kids - sub 4 years old. Anything can set them off!

It's the poor behavior of the older ones that really gets me, allowing them to play by running up and down aisles, pushing around adults, yelling at each other. Essentially playing as if they were outside. They are old enough to know what is appropriate to the setting.

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

[Brandy]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day.

Not the same. At all.

[Brandy]

Here goes. While I admire parents able to just abort a shopping trip when little so-and-so has a meltdown, I never felt I had the time to do the same. If I was there, in a store, with my son, you can be sure it was because we *really* needed to buy food that very day. Lord knows I'd have left him behind if I could.

So my solution when he went insane was just say: "Too bad. I know you don't like this, but we'll be here until I'm finished" and then just ignore him. When he was older and more whiny than meltdowny I told him in advance than whining for some sweets or an ice-cream would automatically insure that he did not get it. (Which led to some very sweet hints... "oh, wow, that ice-cream looks good. Doesn't it, mommy? *big smile*")

And I can honestly say that apart from the first few tantrums he did get it, and was in general very well behaved. And he still is! He's learned that adults respond to politeness, whether he really means it or not.

And whenever I hear childless friends griping about screaming kids in stores I remind them that that kid is screaming, not because he's a spoilt brat, but because he is NOT getting whatever he wants. It's all hell to listen to, but the parents are in fact disciplining the kid right in front of your nose, and because of it will behave better another time.

Thank you! I feel exactly the same way. Believe me, I don't enjoy shopping with three children in tow, it's not fun for them, it's not fun for me, and if I didn't HAVE to do it, I wouldn't! I honestly don't think that people will get it unless they've been there.

[mimitabby]

I had two unruly sons. I did not let them run wild in any stores. Okay, we always let them try out all the bikes and stuff at toys R us.I figured that store was fair game!!
but in the grocery store, etc, they were firmly locked to me
at all times. That's also why i stopped at 2 children; I could hold one with each hand.
I did not allow them to harass animals of any kind.
It can be done, raising children to respect others. There's no excuse for the behavior you described. Now sometimes my kids were louder than one might like, and that's where I say kids will be kids.. Sometimes we'd just join them.

They were not allowed to play in the street. and we live on a dead end.