Gov't Assistance: WIC, food stamps

[limewave]

I know this is a HIGHLY political topic. And I don't really care for politial debates at all and this is bound to stir one. I imagine I will regret posting this by morning. Anyways, . . .

I know a family that is on WIC and receives various government assistance. They have two kids and work minimum wage jobs. On top of food stamps they get cash assistance every month. Their daycare (the same daycare my kids attend) is paid for by the government and so is their healthcare (which is more comprehensive than my healthcare). And they also get a family membership to the YMCA (wish I could afford a membership). I know there is more assistance than this going on, but this is just what I know about. And then, I find out they had an $8,000 tax return. $8,000. Are they even paying taxes?

Is there any incentive for them to try and do better for themselves or to get off welfare? How do these programs work? I am hoping this post does not come across in the wrong way. This comes from a place of curiosity and wanting to understand (not a political stance).

[Pax]

A lot of those benefits can only run 60 months, from the birth of the first child. Once the 60 month clock runs out they will lose a lot of the cash assistance, daycare assistance, and in most states they will lose the adult healthcare.

[missjean]

I think what is happening is they pay taxes every pay check, but then they get it back.

From Wikipedia:
The United States federal earned income tax credit or earned income credit (EITC or EIC) is a refundable tax credit for low- and medium-income individuals and couples, primarily for those who have qualifying children. When the credit exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who qualify and claim the credit. That is, this credit is refundable. This tax credit is provided, in part, to offset the burden of social security taxes and to maintain an incentive to work.[1] It has also been part of political debates regarding whether to raise the minimum wage or whether to increase the earned income credit[citation needed], with the EIC being targeted to persons and couples taking care of children (with parents receiving preference over other family members).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

30 some years ago, when we didn't have two nickles to rub together, we got WIC coupons, but nothing else.

[Irulan]

I am financial POA for a relative who lives solely on disability and other benefits. They have disability, medicaid, foodstamps ($18 month)a HUD subsidy, and sometimes they get utility assistance.

These agencies have a series of complex formulas that they use to calculate benefits. The formulas are based on assets ( bank account balances), amount of rent paid, what utilities cost, medical bills, and some sort of perceived amount that you can have based on family size. The food stamp benefit is recalculated every two or three months.

I do not know anything about EIC, as this person survives on below poverty level and does not file taxes. Family size can affect everything. I'm surprised that they get a Y membership, but they may have applied for a scholarship benefit and gotten it that way. I do not know of any public benefits program, state or govt run that would pay for a membership like that.

Having assisted this person for several years, all I can say is that it's tough to make it if that is all you have. She unfortunately cannot work any longer due to a stroke, and the disability benefit is all she has. She's not even 50 yet.

[OakLeaf]

Um, if they're both working full time jobs, what else is it that you want them to do?

Even assuming there were jobs available (which for all the claims of "recovery," real statistics show there aren't), if they were to take second and third jobs as a lot of the working poor do, all that means is paying for more child care. Usually a net wash, or even a net loss, unless the child care is subsidized (which it probably wouldn't be anyway for a second job).


Your Y may offer a sliding scale or individually negotiated rates, if you think your family should qualify for a discount.

[Irulan]

Um, if they're both working full time jobs, what else is it that you want them to do?

Even assuming there were jobs available (which for all the claims of "recovery," real statistics show there aren't), if they were to take second and third jobs as a lot of the working poor do, all that means is paying for more child care. Usually a net wash, or even a net loss, unless the child care is subsidized (which it probably wouldn't be anyway for a second job).


Your Y may offer a sliding scale or individually negotiated rates, if you think your family should qualify for a discount.

I've seen the calculation on what two full time minimum wage jobs earn annually, and it's not much to raise a family on.

[limewave]

They don't work full time. But I do see your point.

I do appreciate the explanations everyone.

[Bethany1]

My husband works for Health and Human Services so I know how some of it is set up. Some of it is fair and some of it is full of politics and crazy loopholes. The main idea is provide help for those who need it but then it turns murky after that. I've used the system myself at various points so I can give a better explanation from my point of view. Anyone that works pays taxes so the family you speak of is paying taxes.

WIC only provides a certain amount of food per month per child up to age 5?. When I was on it, it paid for cheese, eggs, cereal, milk, some juice and baby formula. I was so grateful to have the help with baby formula because I wasn't able to breast feed 3 children due to seizure medications.

Food stamps are much harder to get than people think and you don't get a lot of money each month..a couple hundred dollars. Most people my husband talks too or when he does the paperwork don't qualify because of crazy reasons like your car being worth too much. The idea is go through all your "assets" before assistance kicks in. It breaks his heart to say that you don't qualify. A lot of the people he talks too aren't losers trying to take advantage of the system, but every day people.

We didn't qualify years ago because our crappy car was worth too much. So how does my husband get to work if he doesn't have a car we asked? You either sell your car and go on welfare or find other means to barely get by. That turns into a nightmarish circle of poverty because once you go over the amount the government provides (but still isn't enough to even get by) you lose those welfare benefits putting you right back where you were in the first place. Hence the "why work when you can go on welfare and get benefits?" attitude and is the cause of the topic. You are penalized for trying make your life better.

We chose to keep the car and slowly starved until our church found out what was going on. Those were some pretty tough years and in all honesty I still have food issues 15 years later as I still think that I need to save the food for my kids and not eat myself. When I do eat, it's almost like eat as much as you can now, because you don't know when you'll eat again.

I don't get how the tax benefits work like EIC other than we qualified for it. The credits were set up for those who don't make enough to get by but getting a huge refund seems wrong as well due to all the credits. I wasn't able to work due to health issues so the child care assistance never came into issue. I always felt that "why work when all my earnings would go to child care?" I want to raise my kids, not the failing day care industry especially after a devastating child protective service case I went through and my kids were forced into day care. I had a really bad reaction to Paxil after being put on it for a couple of weeks and hopefully someone made the phone call out of concern, not out of spite. Once the doc figured out it was the Paxil, everything was fine.

There needs to be a massive overhaul of benefits, taxes, and health care so that everyone pays in and have benefits, but I don't have the answers. No one group of people should carry the burden of caring for the poor nor should you be penalized for being wealthy. In some ways it doesn't seem fair that I pay for my medications/doc visits/ER visits while someone else gets it for "free" from my taxes. At the same time, if it wasn't for those systems, many people wouldn't have anything like food and health care. I shudder to think what would happen if I didn't have access to my seizure and bipolar medications.

It truly sucks being underemployed as I'm sure the family you are talking about is in. It turns into a massive poverty cycle that is becoming more and more prevalent as time goes by.

[OakLeaf]

Health insurance is huge, of course. I would have to work 80 hours per week at minimum wage just to pay for my health insurance. That's for a single individual, granted that I'm 52 and female in a state that allows sex discrimination in insurance premiums (I believe I pay about 35% more than a male my age, but that's off the top of my head and might be slightly off). It's decent coverage, better than most people probably get these days, but not comprehensive by any means. (Remember that although Medicaid is fairly comprehensive on its face in states where it hasn't been privatized, few providers accept Medicaid patients, and those who do have very little time for them.)

The other thing is that little truth that's been getting a lot of play lately: if the minimum wage had kept pace with executive salaries for the past 20 years alone, America's poorest workers would be making $23 an hour.

[Irulan]

It's such a complicated topic. There are people who truly benefit from the system and then there is abuse, too. I've been on both sides of it. I used to work for a company whose best customers were welfare moms planning purchases around their checks. Now I assist someone who it if weren't for the system would be destitute or close. I get really frustrated in that the ER is her only option for any kind or urgent care; there really is something wrong with that. I see the smart phones and $100 shoes also, and I don't know how some people do it.

[Irulan]

It's unfortunate that people take advantage of the system.

I know a family who won the lottery, inherited money and chooses not to work and they get government assistance

This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

[jyyanks]

This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

I really don't know. This family is in Florida, however, I know people in NY too though their case is not as extreme. My best friend is the perfect example of someone who also receives government assistance and does not work. Her husband is the sole breadwinner but she CHOOSES to stay home with her 13 year old son who is perfectly capable of taking care of himself. She has held jobs in the past but she refuses to work now because she wants to stay home with her son! BTW, her mom runs a daycare so its not like she didnt have options for the past 13 years. I've talked to her about it but she has her reasons. At the end of the day, she's still my friend regardless of what she chooses to do but I am perplexed.

For all the bad stories, there are good stories too. I have seen families who truly need the support and who benefit from it. I just wish that there are less families taking advantage . I'm not saying that a Majority of people are taking advantage. I'm just sad that I personally know of 2-3 families.

[Pax]

This is what I don't understand. I've heard of this. How do they hide their assets? Is Social Services just spread too thin to verify people's applications? I could believe that.

You lie. The social worker managing the case (me a few years ago) has very limited resources to follow up on people who lie. However, many people who tell the truth get turned down for benefits because they have too many assets.

[keyes1tl]

There is abuse in the system, but there are families out there that really do need the help. Some people on assistance are able to afford to smoke a pack or more of cigarettes everyday, or buy all kinds of junk food or convenience food because they don't have "time" or the skills to make real meals for their families. Food stamps can be used to buy Pepsi or Coke. People will buy cases of drinks and then literally pour the liquid out, return the bottle for the ten cent refund and use the money to buy cigarettes or beer. There should be a few changes made to the system.

[ridebikeme]

I'm also hesitant to get in on this conversation. While I agree with most of the comments, I would dare say that there are HUGE problems here in Maine. I don't want to assume that everyone is cheating the system, but I do know that it happens alot here. It seems that there are some who will check online to see which states offer the most assistance and then they move there. I've known a few people that have done just that... all of them so that they didn't have to work. They drove nicer cars than I do, had a big screen tv, a cell phone which was paid for by the state... and I could go on and on. Their children were old enough to leave home...

I've also seen many people that NEED this assistance and they don't qualify, and of course that's another issue all in itself. In the past few years, many people have found that they could move to the New England states and live here fairly well. It has happened time and again, especially in towns where there was some sort of industry that had closed down. I'm not sure what that has to do with people moving there, but it has happened time and again.

Lastly, there is a huge problem in this county with housing. Most landlords would rather accept section 8 applicants more than anyone else... Those same landlords also seem to know how to qualify for federal assistance for updates on these buildings. I'm not sure where their monthly money goes, as the buildings are very old and have no mortgage!There was a sad case last week in a town close to me, where this building had received LOTS of work paid for by taxpayers over the past two years. The windows were not installed to code, and a two year old figured out how to open the window and fell out!(from three stories) Luckily, she landed in a snowbank and had no major injuries.

Anyway, this is a very sensitive subject for me.... but it's something that our government definitely needs to look into and make some MAJOR adjestments.