Odd?

[limewave]

Has anyone heard of this: Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)?

I have sought out several venues for help parenting DD (almost 5 yo). I've listened to hours of tapes of Love & Logic, been to seminars, tried "1-2-3 Magic!" and all sorts of things. When I've asked for help from the experts, they give me step-by-step instructions. And I reply, "Okay, I do that, but what do you do AFTER that? When DD is still screaming, still hitting, still kicking, throwing, etc after 3 hours and STILL will not quit?" I always get a perplexed look from the "expert."

Recently it was suggested by a doctor that she has ODD. Is this really just another word for "stubborn"? He really didn't give me any advice or seek to put her on medication (which I don't want to do).

This still doesn't solve anything. I'm just so tired. Her behavior takes so much time and effort from me. I feel like I have nothing left to give to DS (15 months).

She goes to daycare regularly and the teachers adore her. She doesn't have any behavioral problems there, so that's good

[oxysback]

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

[limewave]

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

I agree that it's important to set cosequences that I can follow through with. The problem is, she won't sit in time-out. I have on many occassions spent 3+ hours putting her in time out. I just can't do that anymore now that I have a 15 month old. I've taken away TV, her toys, special outtings--it doesn't seem to effect her.

I know this is a cycling forum. I just needed a somewhat safe place to vent. I tried talking about this with my parents, but they want nothing to do with it. I had to let it out somewhere before I imploded

[Veronica]

I had a student a couple of years ago with ODD. I do think it's goes beyond being stubborn. He was a great kid one on one - very bright, very funny. But he loved to be the class clown. I worked on training the rest of the class to ignore him because his fits if I said something to him could horrific. It was not a pleasant year.

Has your daughter always been difficult or is it a new thing since baby bro came along? Have other things changed in your family? What's your husband's role? Is she just as difficult for him?

I know it's hard as a parent to medicate your child. But if something works for her it's worth it. If she had asthma would you deny her an inhaler? I say this because my first three years of teaching were at a private school were all the kids had ADD. I had one student whose parents REALLY wanted drugs to be the answer. Over the years they tried everything and nothing really worked. They finally looked into diet. Taking him off wheat and sugar totally changed him. Same year, different student, parents desperately wanted to keep him off drugs. They had tried diets, biofeedback, various behavior management techniques. They finally put him on Ritalin. He became a different kid too - in a good way.

The human body is so amazingly complex.

I hope you get this worked out.

Veronica

[shootingstar]

Would agree with oxy, that she is fine at school...which she probably DOES understand her baisc behavioural boundaries outside of home, when she is supervised by other non-parental, supportive, adults.

I don't have much to add but never give up. As an aunt observing nieces and nephews growing up:

A sister had big problems with her son when he was around 5-7 yrs. old. He couldn't calm down, whine, etc. She and hubby finally figured it helpful to find a safe outlet after he returned from school to run around/walk in park with him for only 20 min. or so near home. That seemed to divert son's energy that wouldn't turn into something negative.

Nephew is now smart young man (23 yrs.), calm and relaxed... Same boy who had alot of tantrum controlling time-outs compared to his older sis.

Similar situation for a mother-high school teacher. Her husband was also a teacher. Son was again hyperactive, stubborn at 6-9 yrs. They found it helpful to have him watch tv, laugh at cartoons for 20 min. or 1/2 hr. at noon for lunch, etc. before he went back to school.. it calmed their son before energy turned negative. I last heard the young man was a mentor-teenager helping younger kids on their computer literacy skills. Obviously the kid learned patience, calmness... to mentor others!

Looks like a pattern at least for these 2 children....generally well-behaved at school, does well in school but as soon as they got home, the kid let loosened up negatively unless their energy was redirected elsewhere as soon as they came home. For these 2 children it was a regular activity that they liked to do to expend that energy for a brief time.


She's a good kid, don't give up. Kudos to you and hubby to take time to ask, figure out behavioural patterns.

Veronica's suggestion on certain food triggers and timing of what child should eat is useful also.

[jessmarimba]

She sounds like me when I was that age. I turned out ok! And that determination sure helped a lot over the years.

But I was an absolute angel at school, and could be an absolute terror at home. Always in trouble, screaming, throwing things, whatever. A battle over something minute could escalate in a matter of seconds. And I KNEW when they were losing patience and were about to start screaming (or spanking) and I pushed it all the more, being well aware of the consequences.

I don't remember enough to be able to think of what would've worked instead though. I just know I had to win each and every battle, and that I had infinitely more time and energy than my overtaxed mother...and I was very aware of those circumstances. I also had a younger sister that mom had to watch, so 3 hours of throwing me in time out wouldn't have worked either.

Good luck. I outgrew it eventually, but I'm sure you'll find a quicker solution.

[limewave]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I'm going to print these out and read through them tonight when I have some time. What I skimmed so far there seems to be some good points and alternatives to try.

[Chile Pepper]

First off, hugs. It's so hard to have to face something like this. I had some similar issues with my older son (now 11). I remember holding the door closed for time outs, while he was screaming and trying to get out on the other side. I also wound up yelling a lot--I never spanked, but my yelling was like a slap in the face. That was definitely not how I had envisioned motherhood or the kind of mother I thought I would be. It was just awful. He and I are both strong-willed and somewhat controlling, and we would just spiral down into these power struggles.

I eventually figured out that it was best to avoid the struggles--not in the sense of walking on egg shells, but simply to prevent nonproductive conflict. A book I found helpful in that area was Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles. For me, it was important to figure out what we did that got us into the struggles and then find ways to either ignore the trigger when it happened or redirect (though I have to say I'm not good at redirecting). It was also important for me to realize I could say, "I'm really upset right now, so we're going to deal with this later when we're both calmer." You don't have to set consequences in the moment. You can walk away and come back later.

I also found that sometimes my son was right--that what I wanted to have happen wasn't what he needed in the moment, and frequently what I was trying to do wasn't that important. It's not that he won or was controlling me, but that he had a legitimate reason for whatever it was he wanted or needed, and it just took me a while to see it. Once he knew I was willing to listen to (and hear) his needs, he was more cooperative. For example, when he was around 8, he refused to go to his annual medical check. My first thought was that I would take him kicking and screaming if I had to, but instead I calmly sat down and asked some questions to figure out why he didn't want to go. It turned out he didn't want the doctor checking his privates, so we agreed that he would go to the appointment but ask the doctor to skip that part as it really wasn't necessary. Problem solved without the usual power struggle.

I can also tell you it does get better. My son is still fairly quick-tempered, strong-willed, and controlling. That's just his personality. But he is also a delightful member of our family, and we have a lot of fun together.

[Desert Tortoise]

Limewave, I hear and feel your frustration and exhaustion. I've never heard of ODD but I have had similar problems with my 4 1/2 year old. Perhaps not to the same extent but what you described is close to home.

I too tried time outs and (cringe) spanking which we no longer do, taking away tv and toys. The time outs were the biggest bust since they just became full blown power struggles to stay. Yet at preK and childcare not a problem. So we don't do time outs anymore.

Instead I changed my approach. When I see my son start to get in his mood I soften my voice, speak firmly but lovingly and get close to him. Sometimes he needs to cry a bit, get a little frustration out but I remain calm. Then I ask him what the problem is/needs, acknowledge what it is and then state what needs to be done.

For example, it's time to put toys away and he doesn't want to and the screaming starts. We do our thing and if he still continues, then I take away his favorite thing of the moment. I calmly tell him why, do it and step away for a minute or two if he's still crying and screaming (this helps me stay calm too). After a few minutes he calms down, comes over and says sorry. Then we continue on and the favorite is still put away. After the appropriate time (usually a day) I tell him he has been listening and doing a good job of putting toys away and give him the item back.

It goes like this back and forth. He's not the perfect little boy but we get better results faster and the house is calmer.

Also, when I am tired and at my limit, I have screamed and yelled which only made the situation worse. I have gone to him and said I am sorry for yelling at him, I was tired (or whatever was going on at the time) and that it was wrong of me to do that to him. He then hugs me, tells me its ok and can I sit down and play with him so I can feel better.

This approach is just a thought. There are many good ideas listed here. It may be one or a combination of things to work. It took a lot of trial and error for us to find what works. And what does not work one week, may work in another. I'm sure you know about that all too well.

Don't sweat it about this being a cycling forum. We may cycle but we also have LOTS of moms out there who can relate

Good luck and keep us posted.
DT