Pointing at Drivers?

[runnergirl]

Went on the usually wed. night group ride last night, and it ROCKED!!!

An older women saw the group and came to hang with us, after a bit she and one of the fast guys took off, I hung along and they taught me a TON about pace line riding/drafting etc...we were over 21 the whole time except for one hill. Best ride ever!

Anyhoo...the point of this post, Tom (the guy) when he was in the lead would point at cars. It was like taking the eye contact thing to the next level, but I can see how some drivers might see this as confrontational. As an example, we were going up a slight incline, no bike lane, right turn lane into shopping center on the right, with a driver from the opposite direction about to turn left into said shopping center. The driver did not appear to be yielding to us, so Tom turned his head, rode with one hand and pointed directly at the driver. The driver jerked to a stop and we rode on.

Is this a common practice? Do you think it could be interpreated wrongly by already hostile drivers? It sure seemed effective, but as a lone female most of the time I don't want to risk ticking someone off.

[DeniseGoldberg]

Maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd rather stop (and be safe) than confront a driver. While my experience is that more drivers are considerate than not, I don't want to chance an accident.

One thing I've found very interesting is that when I'm riding in traffic and I am able to move to the left and I signal a left turn, that the oncoming drivers will often stop and wave me though. If cars are heading toward me though, I'd rather take the time to stop.

--- Denise

[Irulan]

was he pointing with his middle finger?

~irulan

[jobob]

Anyhoo...the point of this post, Tom (the guy) when he was in the lead would point at cars. It was like taking the eye contact thing to the next level, but I can see how some drivers might see this as confrontational.

Is this a common practice? Do you think it could be interpreated wrongly by already hostile drivers? It sure seemed effective, but as a lone female most of the time I don't want to risk ticking someone off.

The point (as it were) for pointing at cars about to enter intersections is two-fold: First it's to get the attention of the oncoming driver, second it's to alert any cyclists behind you of a potential hazzard ahead.

But I do it a bit differently, since I agree with you, pointing seems a little bit confrontational to me.

Instead, I smile and wave cheerily at the oncoming driver. Not only is it less confrontational (IMHO), waving is more likely to catch the driver's attention than pointing. I also make sure that the driver is looking AT me (rather than through me) when I'm about to cross his/her path. More often than not the drivers wave back, so I know I got their attention. And it's good cycling PR, which never hurts

One of my road cycling academy students told me that I was the friendliest rider he's ever seen, the way I wave and smile at drivers. I told him heck, I'm not being friendly, I'm covering my @$$

- Jo

[MomOnBike]

Smile and wave to get the cars to back off some, huh? I might have to try that.

Actually, the drivers around here are pretty nice. I find myself waving a lot of "thank-you's" at cars that make life easier for me. Still, pre-emptive waving sounds like a good idea.

[Grog]

I may try Jobob's trick of "waving", but actually I do a bit like your Tom guy but I don't point (which is indeed perhaps a bit agressive). Instead, I stretch my arm and put my hand in a "stop" motion (perpendicular to the ground) just like the traffic cops do at intersections (quite universal and drivers should be familiar with this).

I do that especially in front of drivers which I feel might not give me rightful priority when I am going straight and they are turning. Actually I read that most accidents on bikes are caused by drivers turning in front of a cyclist because they underestimate the speed of the bike and/or overestimate our capacity to brake. By signalling to them I draw their attention and protect my priority (and above all my life!!). It's kinda hard to work up if the car is coming from behind and wants to turn right, though, especially since the intentions of the driver are impossible to guess unless you have eyes on your jersey pockets.

I'll try to accentuate the waving and make sure I smile. I'm totally agreeing with the idea that we have to maintain peaceful relations with the drivers and other users of the road (including pedestrians). That's among the reasons why I always stop at red lights. I behave like a (responsible and respectful) car driver would as much as I can.

[slinkedog]

Good idea, jo. I have yelled at cars before. In one instance, I was going straight and a car was getting ready to make a right into my path and wasn't looking my way (I was just going past his line), so I yelled at the top of my lungs and he heard me and stopped. His window was open, so I was pretty sure he would hear me. Not always the case. I didn't have time to stop, though, so it seemed like the best thing to do. My 3 year old has a pink squeaky pig on her trike handlebars... maybe I need one of those! I do know of a couple of people who have some sort of air horn for such occasions.

[jobob]

That's among the reasons why I always stop at red lights. I behave like a (responsible and respectful) car driver would as much as I can.

[lecture mode on]

I'm very glad you do that, Grog, but with all due respect, first and foremost we stop at stop lights because that's the law - when we're cycling on the road, we are vehicles and we are subject to the same laws as other vehicles. We have to behave like a car driver because we are subject to the same laws as a car driver would be.

And apart from it being the law, when we behave like car drivers we are acting predictably - and that's essential for safe cycling.

[/lecture mode off]

- jo "mother hen" bob

[Grog]

[lecture mode on]

I'm very glad you do that, Grog, but with all due respect, first and foremost we stop at stop lights because that's the law - when we're cycling on the road, we are vehicles and we are subject to the same laws as other vehicles. We have to behave like a car driver because we are subject to the same laws as a car driver would be.

And apart from it being the law, when we behave like car drivers we are acting predictably - and that's essential for safe cycling.

[/lecture mode off]

Isn't it exactly what I said I did and promote? I did not specify I did it because it is the law, which I obviously know, and frankly it is not the only or even the main reason why I do it (usually laws are there for a purpose). I do it for my own safety and that of others whom I share the road with. That's what first and foremost to me. But the point is: I still do it.

Frankly, I am not sure acting "first and foremost" because a given behavior is prescribed by "the law" is always the best thing to do. For instance, the code in Quebec specifies that whenever there is a cycling path we must use it. It is the LAW. Well in may situations it turns out that our cycling paths are outright dangerous because they run countertraffic and many cyclists get hit every year right there. So I obey instead to another article of the same law that specifies that I must behave just like any other vehicle, and I ride with the traffic, and the behavior of drivers around me (quite respectful when I'm on the road, quite careless if I'm riding countertraffic on the bike path where they least expect me to be) quite convinces me that it is, in such a situation, the safest thing to do. You are quite right about predictability as a very important value when driving any kind of vehicle.

(Plus: many laws of the past and present were/are outright discriminatory and, fortunately, there are people disobeying them and trying to make things change.)

I have noticed, however, and you certainly have noticed too, that 95% of cyclists do NOT obey to traffic lights nor to stop signs. That was what my point was about: acting as a vehicle to be respected as a legitimate vehicle on the road.

[bcipam]

I belong to a large cycling group in Orange County, CA. This whole discussion comes up time and time again. Bottom line, we are under the law, considered to be vehicles and must obey all traffic laws, including stopping at stop signs, using hand signals etc. Most formal riding groups are very good at doing this. They will point towards the direction of a turn, will hold out their arms and hands to notify and signal to drivers that they are riding through, call out hazards etc. My group, unfortunately is not so formal and alot of riders just follow along and in an effort to stay with the lead riders, will blow through signs and even stop lights.

I try to stop btu confess through residential neighbors will only slow down. I signal my turns and I also hold my arm out to drivers to get their attention and let them know when I'm riding through. One example or riders pissing me and motorist off. I stopped at a 4 way stop. The driver had the right of way and I motioned them through. Just as the car started forward, two riders came from behind me, did not stop, and made a left turn right in front of the driver. The driver had to hit his brakes and gave me a nasty look. I later caught up to those riders and gave them a piece of my mind (and since there is so little left I hate to do this).

I really don't like to hear riders shouting or pointing at cars. The action can be misunderstood. We just have to be more diligent than cars in watching traffic and making sure it is safe to proceed. We all have to be good-will representatives of the cycling community and act politely and with courtesy.

[Lynne]

Hmmmm...I have a lot to learn. Last weekend out cycling w/the BF, an oncoming car turned left in front of me. He saw me coming, we made eye contact, he frowned and went ahead and turned. There were two cars behind him and one heading my direction behind me. The problem is, I couldn't stop fast enough. He figured that out at the last second and thank goodness he gunned it and finished crossing in front of me. But I was so mad, I yelled at him...I wanted to confront him (I know...so bad!).

Then just a few hundred feet ahead at a light, a mini van that had been BEHIND me and so knew I was there started to travel in the bike lane to make a right hand turn. He wasn't trying to get around a car going straight, there was no reason for him to use the bike lane. I slowed down, he kept moving over more and more into my bike and slowing...like, "hello! What do I need to do to actually HIT the cyclist?? Ok, move more right, slow down...match the bike's pace...that's good...". So again, I yelled at the top of my lungs "HEY! I'M ON A BIKE HERE! OVER HERE! NEXT TO YOU! YOU IDIOT!". Then I flipped him off after he made the turn. I have a very bad temper All the cars waiting at the light saw me and I felt like an idiot.

Gotta rein in my temper since it seems this is a typical occurrence!

[wingsonwheels]

Cycling mostly on "rural" roads, I try to be friendly and wave at oncoming drivers...just to let them know we're on the road too...

I've been accused of being to passive about taking my place, but I'd rather wait a minute and be safe than "dead right" so to speak. I'd wave or motion to a driver, but never point. Those guys in their trucks can get P----d off pretty quick!

[SnappyPix]

This is such an emotive subject!
Having commuted to work for the past few years, I can identify with all that's been said - and especially with Lynne.
It's so hard to keep your cool when you know that some car drivers are intentionally trying to run you off the road, or ride straight through you.
I started off being polite to drivers, but after months and eventually years of being abused on the roads, I developed a deep seated road rage with everyone who crossed me.
One day I got into an altercation with a guy who took exception to me not yielding to him, even though he was behind me at a junction. This developed into a heated argument, him trying to run me over, me banging on his window, him taking chase after me, deliberately trying to run into me. I again caught up with him and banged on his window and he then got out of the car and came at me to punch me. I think that it was only because I was a woman that he stopped.
To cut a long story short, it's so difficult not to express your anger when someone does something crazy - but I was stupid and learned my lesson.
Now I grit my teeth and for the most part take my anger out on my pedals.
I always try to make eye contact with people who are turning in front of me, and will put my hand up in the stop position if I think they're gonna cut me up. On the flip side, I also say thank you to patient drivers who I know could have pulled out in front of me, but who waited.
Despite the fact that cyclists are so abused on the roads, it's stupid to get into arguments with drivers because you never know where it will end.
I know that sometimes I'm guilty of taking the moral highground - I'm one less car, yes, but I should also have consideration for others and shouldn't get annoyed if someone slows me down, makes me stop whilst in full pelt, or blocks the road so I can't sail past.
Of course, endangering my life or my bike is another thing, but I think the cooler, patient (but assertive) approach is the better.

[slinkedog]

I really don't like to hear riders shouting or pointing at cars. The action can be misunderstood. We just have to be more diligent than cars in watching traffic and making sure it is safe to proceed. We all have to be good-will representatives of the cycling community and act politely and with courtesy.

I totally agree that we have to be more careful on bikes and that we have to be good representatives of the cycling community. However, if I'm in a situation where I'm about to get hit because someone in a car isn't watching and I can't stop in time, I will most certainly yell at them or do whatever necessary to avoid an accident. It's like my version of a horn on a car.

[RoadRaven]

I belong to a large cycling group in Orange County, CA. This whole discussion comes up time and time again. Bottom line, we are under the law, considered to be vehicles and must obey all traffic laws, including stopping at stop signs, using hand signals etc.

Absolutely agree
We must obey the law as we are required to - same application of road rules in this country too


*big sigh*
Wouldn't it be nice if the cars recognised we have road rights too, such as a legal right to ride 2 abreast
*slips into daydream mode*