Gender and pro cycling

[spazzdog]

I just read a very interesting article in the June issue of Bike magazine called Venus Envy

The article really bothered me. Its seems a transgender woman (M->female) took up mtn biking. She got really good, started competing as an amateur, then as a pro. Some pro women protested her right to compete (not when she was amatuer, and only when growing talent threatened their podium finishes), she was suspended. Reinstated by Canada's IOC and other governing bodies she still gets dissed when she podiums.

Now granted, my views may be a bit different than some... I've lived in the gay/lesbian/transgender community in one way or another for more than 20 yrs. When I played rugby, my team had a M->F transgendered person on our team. We got boycotted at a tournament, but surprisingly the tournament upheld her right to play... and this was in the early '80s.

This story really got to me for the following reasons:

• mtn biking started, and was for yrs a unisex anti conformity thing
• the drugs the subject took to "become" female made her weaker, not stronger
• the whole idea that there is a "guy" way of viewing a course is ridiculous to me, especially coming from pros
• it's 2005 for gosh sake!

There's more, but I am really interested in other folks views, in cycling or any other sport for that matter.

spazz

[Melody]

There's more, but I am really interested in other folks views, in cycling or any other sport for that matter.

spazz

Spazz, I agree with you, but I'm also a very open person. I'm bi myself and when I worked at Microsoft, I was a member of GLEAM (Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender Employees At Microsoft) and was active locally.

I just personally don't get the discrimination. :/

Mel

[spazzdog]

THe article is very good... it takes a sympathetic view of her position. I'd recommend reading it.

This forum has such a great mix of women of different lifesyles, ethnicity, cycling experience, cycling goals... many have played other sports, or no sports at all.

I just thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss...

Discrimination confuses me too... all kinds of discrimination. It seems (and I know this is a very simplistic answer) to always be fear/ego based.

spazz

[singletrackmind]

Maybe they are under the impression that all you have to do is velcro some melons on and voila! woman???

On that train of thought maybe these "they" people feel they are competing with a man decorated with some baubles?

I don't know much about transgender stuff (I know there's a heck of a lot more to it than velcro and baubles) but if she's truly got girl capability and no longer has "man strength" then the theys need their train derailed and reset.

Who you are inside is who you are whether you like it or not so you might as well BE who you are.

[MightyMitre]

I live in Brighton, which is pretty much the unofficial gay capital of England. Each year we have a HUGE pride march in August which attracts thousands of people and it's fantastic. A lot of shops and restaurants round here sport the rainbow badge in their windows, there are a lot of gay clubs, the best being called Cruise (which is I think is a great name for a club.) Gay men and women are very open here, holding hands, kissing, doing the kind of things everyone does. I love living here - mainly for the fantastic diversity of people.

There was a case a few years ago in England about Time Trialling, where among other things the regulations specify you provide your gender as at birth, which would obviously be problematic for a TG competetor. I didn't follow the story right to the end, but basically the girl in question argued that although born male she was now female and should therefore compete against other women, not men.

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

In my current ignorant state, I could understand how, if a girl found herself on the startline with someone who was TG - they may be suspicious that the TG rider may have an unfair physical advantage because they still have male genes.

Would this really be the case?

[Melody]

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

There's no shame at ignorance. It just means you don't know.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

Nope. Without the continued testosterone in the system, the muscles begin to atrophy and it requires a considerably more amount of training and exercise for them just to keep what they had. Add in estrogen and muscle strength goes down. Remove the testosterone factory, and it goes poof. (sorry about any mental images )

In my current ignorant state, this is what would concern me if I found myself on the startline with someone who was TG - the idea that they may have an unfair physical advantage because they have male genes.

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.

Now, I've got am FTM (Female to Male) friend and he's the opposite. He's of small stature, but strong muscles, which would give him an advantage in some sports.

Mel

[slinkedog]

Well, the only reason I would see for there to be a problem is with the possibilities that MM stated. But if the hormones equal out or even diminish the aerobic/muscular advantage that a biological male would have, then who cares??

[MightyMitre]

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.
Mel

Never really occured to me but that would make sense...

Certainly in the UK it can be a very long and tiring battle, taking years, to even to get to the first discussions with doctors about surgery, so I'm guessing that the guts, sticking power and determination someone would need to undergo reassingment would spill over into the sports arena.

People may sneer at a TG competitor on the podium and make claimes that is just a 'boy with boobs' - but could they claim to have the same level of deterimination and committment...?

[MightyMitre]

Eeek - just read my reply and it sounds seriously patronising.

What I mean is, if you've had to work extremely hard in one area of your life, chance are you're not afraid of hard work and are more likey to have the right mentality to make you a winner on and off the cycle track.

[spazzdog]

I think the "reason" that sent me reeling was the one about her being able to see and assess the course with "guy eyes".

To take that one to a more light-hearted point, isn't it women who always yell about men who have no sense of direction and their refusal to ask directions. Are these the "guy eyes" we're talking about?

As to the whole hormonal thing... oh, yeah. Their strength and bone density decline big time with the addition of estrogen and deletion of testosterone.

If anyone has the magazine, give the article a read and let us know what you think.

[singletrackmind]

Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?

When I raced people used to call me the chick that rides like a guy. I'd fling myself at anything, quickest route possible and pass other women who were off the bike-it won me a lot of races. That's prolly what they mean by "guy eyes"?

[singletrackmind]

http://outside.away.com/outside/feat..._dumaresq.html
an old article-interesting.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...eDumaresq.html
and another.

[Irulan]

the article clarifies that while you must list the sex stated on your birth certificate, TG folks are permitted to have that listing changed once the surgery is completed.

~irulan

[spazzdog]

singletrack... the Bike mag article is also about Michelle Dumaresq and that history up to now.

thanks for the additional links!

spazz

[MightyMitre]

From the article posted by singletrackmind:

"Today, we all fight against doping and try to be natural athletes," says 26-year-old French downhiller Anne-Caroline Chausson, who won her seventh world championship in 2003. "Don't we open a door for genetically modified athletes—or worse? Why not clone Carl Lewis to race against Marion Jones?"

Are they suggesting TG folks are genetically modified? That's pretty offensive.


Earlier I was talking about how I thought a TG rider may have unfair advantages, having still got male genes etc, but dope testing - esp. that for testosterone which is VERY easy to spot - just blows that argument out of the water. A TG rider would be required to have the correct levels of testosterone for her sex, along with all the other competitors in her cat.