Feminists? Any here?

[malkin]

Bicycling is Revolutionary!

It goes 'round and 'round, doesn't it?

[brewer]

{{{comrade malkin}}}

[ilima]

What you describe is a very warped view of feminism. And I'm not attributing the ideas to you, only that you're the messenger/you experienced that narrow minded view.

It doesn't mean splitting everything 50/50. That is, of course, preposterous. It does mean that there should be a discussion of who does what and that normal gender roles should not be assumed. In the house I grew up in both my parents worked. My mom cooked and cleaned. My dad mowed the lawn and took out the trash. He also unloaded the dishwasher and did the laundry.

And for the record, I would definitely would unabashedly call myself a feminist. I'm not afraid to say it one bit.

[ilima]

ok ok, leaving the day care issue out of it...(I shouldn't have thrown that into the mix, sorry) There's plenty to say about feminism without that.

I do think that modern contemporary feminism ( and much of our culture) teaches "me first" for women, at the sacrifice of families and partnerships. My experience as a tail end boomer, (1960) is that the mind set of feminism is that the value of an individual's WOMAN's needs, even when in a family, is greater than the value of the other members of the families needs. The ostracizing of women who choose be a primary care giver/SAHM is not imaginary; it's very real. Maybe less so than in the 80's when I had mine, but I got a LOT of crap for it.
Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

I do accept that women's roles were limited by society for a long time, and that a lot of opportunities have been created in contemporary times. But I don't buy the 50/50 thing at all, and I don't buy devaluing of men especially by some women's studies programs (putting flame suit on)

Maybe I sound bitter; I don't know. My values have moved way center from the liberal, feminist, extreme left wing household I was raised in. I've experienced personally families destroyed by women leaving not horrible situations, just because they "needed" to do something new or different that didn't include the children they bore and the family they should have committed to. Never mind the abandoned children left behind. I have experienced first hand the hate and disdain for men that some women have for men in the name of feminism, sisterhood and women's rights and it makes me really sad.

Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

As Zen said, every one of those things that 'bad' feminists do, men do as well. Dump their family because of a 'mid-life crisis,' put their needs before their wives or their kids. Not saying that's a victory by any means. Just challenging the idea that mom must be the primary care giver.

And one group that is ostracized even more than SAHMs? SAHDs!! That shouldn't be the case!

[shootingstar]

As an aside, I'm interested in knowing brewer's identity since person has only 1 post.

The horrible reality is if a woman does choose to become a full-time housewife, mother at home and she is not in the paid work force for a long time, meaning 5-10 yrs., she might risk relevancy of her work-related skills prior to full-time at home. I'm sure several of us, know personally several mothers who suddenly were divorced and hence, had to find paid work. So keeping one foot in the paid workforce, is like a insurance mechanism if something goes awry with the primary breadwinner. ie. s/he might get laid off, become accidentally disabled, etc.

Some professions, particularily the professions involving legislated certification, testing and licensing requires that the person practices in their profession, at least part-time, to keep their knowledge and skill set up to date. So this internal professional pressure applies for men or women of that profession. Or their trained skill set prior to full-time-at-home parent phase, is tied deeply to technological changes, changes in legislation, diagnostic methods which some jobs are.

Hence, feminism provides the woman if she wishes, to develop more effective, long-term coping mechanisms that benefits her family and herself in the long-term.

Nowadays one would be hard-pressed to believe that any woman at some point in her life, could live her whole lifetime and not thought in some small way the choices that she wanted to make and explaining her reasons to others. The sad thing, do all men go through this? I doubt it. Some thankfully, have approached their options thoughtfully, ie. becoming a father or not becoming a father, impact of their job location on family, etc.

[Jewell]

Comrade Malkin, so glad to have you.

I've heard at length the separation period in feminism. I often think of a new movement as almost like a individual in and of itself, which is prone to have reactions and emotions. I think of the separation period as the reactionary period, the dawning of a new movement, a stage of enlightenment for many women. They reacted as any person would react. I liken it to finding out a loved one really doesn't have your true interests in mind, which I think was a feeling these women were truly feeling in their place in life.

The movement has grown and changed and continues to expand in many different ways.

I think focusing too much on ones frustrations with a movement can really do injustice for a movement that's given us women so much. Its so easy to focus on the negative sides of feminism, but we forget what we have in common, we forget whats is really at stake today.

For Example:

• How many women and girls suffer from anorexia and bulimia because they don't fit into the mainstream media's beauty idea?
• How many welfare mom's get stereotyped over and over again for being bad mothers when the fathers receive little if any repercussions?
• Why do we still disallow gay marriage in most of the country?
• Why is viagra covered under insurance, but birth control is not?
• Why are women continually objectified in all forms of media? We've started to think little of it because now more and more men are being objectified as well, but just because the objectification is becoming more uniform doesn't mean its still not wrong

I am leaving out a lot of racial discrimination, but as a white women I am privileged and do not know the issues many black women must face.

Someone mentioned earlier that man are oppressed as well. I do not disagree one bit. I believe that being in the consumerist society is greatly oppressive to men, no doubt about it. I'm of the belief that capitalism is at the core of the issue, but the oppression of women developed as an expression of the oppression men felt in such a society. The oppression of women is an expression of hurt, of pain that men felt. Women in turn were devalued to be little more than possession. Today of course we've come long way. Women are valued more, but we're still socialized to think its ok to objectify women, to believe women are less than men. Continuing this can be damaging to men, and that's something we often don't address.

[Tuckervill]

There are ways to remain viable for employment and still not be in the workforce. I have gained many valuable skills as a stay-at-home mom that I might not have been given the opportunity to acquire if I had had a 9-to-5er for the last 15 years.

I just heard the other day that the unpaid work I do as a family manager is worth about $122,000 a year in today's economy.

Last week I went in on business to see an acquaintance who knows me from my volunteer work. I told her I was thinking about going into her field when I am free to do so in a few years. She handed me her card and said, "Come work for me!" She was serious. She knows how hard I work at my volunteer endeavors. She knows how hard it is to do what I do as a volunteer and still take care of my family.

I don't think the work I do at home is undervalued by the whole of society. I think certain segments of our society disdain it (feminists? eh, maybe. The word alone rankles me.) I also know there are certain segments of our society who hold it in high esteem (mostly religious communities). Fortunately, I don't get my self-worth from what some segments of society think of what I do. I get it from doing the right thing for me and my family.

I remember when there were commercials on TV about "displaced homemakers", advertising classes that would teach them marketable skills (typing pool?) so they could work after being dumped by their husbands and being "just" a homemaker for so long. Maybe the word they actually used was "housewives"...I can't recall. Anyway, if there are still women around who would be left in the lurch by a man who leaves them with no income and no way to make one, then that is a unimaginative woman who has not been paying attention the last 30 years. ::shrug:::

Karen

[ilima]

So keeping one foot in the paid workforce, is like a insurance mechanism if something goes awry with the primary breadwinner. ie. s/he might get laid off, become accidentally disabled, etc.

Insurance policy. That, I think, is why I would never pull myself out of the workforce entirely for very long. Husbands die and that million dollar policy doesn't go far when you have a mortgage to pay off and young ones to put through college.

If other people (whether it's mom or dad) want to do it, that's fine. It's something I probably wouldn't do, though.

Even more frightening to me than becoming a SAHM (i.e., jumping in without a life jacket/insurance policy) would be to become (or be married to) a workaholic that only has fleeting interactions with the kids & spouse.

[shootingstar]

There are ways to remain viable for employment and still not be in the workforce. I have gained many valuable skills as a stay-at-home mom that I might not have been given the opportunity to acquire if I had had a 9-to-5er for the last 15 years.

I just heard the other day that the unpaid work I do as a family manager is worth about $122,000 a year in today's economy.

Last week I went in on business to see an acquaintance who knows me from my volunteer work. I told her I was thinking about going into her field when I am free to do so in a few years. She handed me her card and said, "Come work for me!" She was serious. She knows how hard I work at my volunteer endeavors. She knows how hard it is to do what I do as a volunteer and still take care of my family.

I don't think the work I do at home is undervalued by the whole of society. I think certain segments of our society disdain it (feminists? eh, maybe. The word alone rankles me.) I also know there are certain segments of our society who hold it in high esteem (mostly religious communities). Fortunately, I don't get my self-worth from what some segments of society think of what I do. I get it from doing the right thing for me and my family.

Karen

I agree that's all sorts of unpaid work that can be transferrable for other types of jobs. Some jobs just won't allow it if the women stays out of her profession for several years without practicing it. It's not impossible, but she might have to take a sideways career change if she can't convince prospective employers of her choice.

I have several sisters --one is family physician. She will work for the rest of life..because she has a baby of 1 yrs. old. Her hubby is a cook and I believe can only work part-time. So that he looks after baby. Clearly in her profession she has to keep her foot in paid work as a physician. Doctor-sister actually can work part-time..because doctors get paid well and she saved money before she even met her hubby. Will she give up such working privileges? Hell no, besides, she has no choice. A drive 100 kms. 1 way to get to work at her hospital.

Another sister is a llcensed hospital pharmacist with 3 children under 11 yrs. old. She is involved on patient care teams, in clinical drug trials and is a preceptor for pharmacy university students. Her drug therapy knowledge must be kept active and and alive by practicing it. Yes, her children are in daycare..they stick to the same one for past 10 yrs.

And contrast to a 3rd sister, who was a licensed hospital pharmacist who decided to be a stay at home mom full time. (She did have her own yoga centre for 2 yrs. Long story behind this one but she was actually successful..but chose not to continue.) She couldn't do community/retail pharmacist work because of various ethical issues /situations that she saw. So she left the profession, which is not unusual in terms of just leaving something one doesn't believe in/can't change certain institutional /systemic things.

[smurfalicious]

But, on the whole, most white, Christian, heterosexual people don't "get" the racism that a lot live with.

Whoa! The race card and the religion card all rolled into one. Huh, maybe I'll check out synagogues over the weekend so I can "get it." I mean, I've never had anyone bash or mock my faith and life has been a bed of roses. I've never had so called enlightened, liberal folks look down on me and assume I wasn't as intelligent or worthy as they because I'm a country girl and prefer that way of life (at least I know how to grow my own food from veggies to beef to eggs should the world go mad). I especially like the comments from these same people about "rednecks" and how we're everything wrong with the world. Can't even tell you how many times my age has made me less capable, less knowledgeable, whatever. Ageism goes, both ways. Oh, and let me tell you Hillary has 2 mommies went over awesome in my small town. Awe-haw-some! I like to think of myself as "heteroflexible" so there are lesbians out there who hate me (oh the irony). And what about the people our culture refers to as "white trash?" You don't think they encounter prejudice?

I don't label myself a feminist because I think what it has become is a joke and insult to amazing women who actually broke ground for us. It seems now that calling yourself a feminist is an excuse to be a flippant b***h while expecting others to tolerate it. There seems to be an attitude that if one man pays you less, all men are to blame. A lot of two wrongs still not adding up to a right.

So I'd call myself a strong woman, modeled after the strongest woman I know, my mom. Like ShootingStar pointed out, my mom gave up drafting to raise us kids and once we were school age she would do upholstery while we were in school. Unfortunately after my parents divorced she was out of luck because no one drafts on a board anymore. She tried to take CAD classes but my dad made it hard for her. So she was stuck and worked her butt off to take care of us. For years she suffered at my dad's hands to try and do what she thought was best for us kids, keep the family together. That was kind of the prevailing attitude then.

To this day I watch her kick butt and take names. She got her contractors license after a full knee replacement. She's doing what she knows, and loves, and every day it makes me proud of her.

I guess I pick and choose my battles. It's like this gal I'm living with, she complains so much that none of it matters anymore. I stand up for myself, by myself, and hopefully that will mean someone else down the road won't have to.

And lets be a skosh honest with ourselves. If men didn't see us as objects of desire eventually we'd have an epic fail as a species.

[shootingstar]

Actually smurf, it wouldn't be surprising that there are still not alot of black women or women of East Indian descent that cycle regularily. Do you see alot of them in women's or girls' cycling competitions or in regular cycling groups?

It's not that our group here would wilfully exclude these women (or be racist), but our socialization patterns probably affect how to influence, how to make our sport TRULY widespread to all segments of society. And that starts opening our eyes really wide..on who and how others are mentored in cycling. We just forget or don't ...notice.

And I was cycling and involved in the cycling advocacy scene with women in Toronto for 5 years where there is a huge black population. Hmmm, I think we had less than 2-3 black women attend our cycling rides, conferences (200 women attended per conference) and workshops.

Probably a broader range of different outreach efforts needs to be done.

I'm just trying to relate feminism...still to cycling.

[Mr. Bloom]

OK Jewell, I'm curious: What is the male equivalent of "feminism"? That is, what is to men, like feminism is to women? I'll also be curious as to your views on how that concept of the "male equivalency" coexists with what I believe your definition of feminism is...without one being subordinate to the other.

I'm of the belief that capitalism is at the core of the issue,

I couldn't DISagree more. Don't confuse consumerism or social injustice with capitalism. A capitalist saves without flaunting...and social justice allows capitalism to thrive. Your attribution to capitalism is very misguided in my humble opinion.

Keep in mind, your views are not just a function of your observations of society, but also the perspective that you possess in making those observations. There are others who have a different perspective who shouldn't feel minimized because they see it differently than you do.

For example:

...ever realize on Seinfeld how George always went out with gorgeous women

you see, I always saw George as the negative point of that...he expected physical attributes of others that he could never attain or possess himself...and was satified with nothing less. Kinda sad...since Hitler did the same thing in defining an ideal appearance that was the opposite of his own physical characteristics.

[Crankin]

I am sorry you feel that way, Smurf. I am not bashing you, your religion, race, or sexuality. In fact, I don't even know you. So, I am not sure where your comments came from, except that it sounds like some narrow minded people have not been nice to you.
Being White, Christian, and heterosexual are positions of power and majority in this country. Most people do not give a thought about how this gives you privileges. We just don't think about it.

[Pax]

Respect is a two way street. I admire stay at home parents, I think they made some wonderful financial decisions so that one parent could stay home and raise their children. Those SAHP's who feel they've been ridiculed should be happy in the knowledge that they had the financial ability to make the choice. Perhaps those who were disrespectful to them simply didn't understand the commitment required?

As for me, I have no kids and when I was a young woman I was tired of being told what I couldn't do, "girls can't be astronauts/firefighters/construction workers...". So, instead of listening to the naysayers I went out and became a professional firefighter in 1983, at that time there were less than 100 of us in the world. I was treated like absolute ****, was put in hazardous situations just to see if I would "man up". I never filed a complaint, I never got nasty, I just worked very very hard at the job until I earned the grudging respect of the people on my department. I'm not a strong orator so I decided to be the kind of feminist who used action rather than words to try and make a difference.

[Zen]

And lets be a skosh honest with ourselves. If men didn't see us as objects of desire eventually we'd have an epic fail as a species.

From a scientific standpoint that's not true at all.If men are on earth solely to preserve the species, there is already enough DNA in sperm banks to last for ages.