Feminists? Any here?

[Crankin]

Jewell, we still *do* have a long way to go. And there is an ever present degree of racism/heterosexism around.
But, I guess with the perspective of age, I have to say that most people aren't thinking about this. I am not saying this is right, but most people just go about living their lives. If there is an act of egregious racism, sexism, etc., then many would respond. But, on the whole, most white, Christian, heterosexual people don't "get" the racism that a lot live with.

I don't feel like I am fulfilling anyone's image of beauty. I like making myself look good for myself. That includes making myself healthy and fit through sports. I think some people get turned off of the word "feminism" because many feminists give the opinion that if you wear make up, dress up etc. you are doing it because of society's expectations on women. I mean, my husband likes buying clothes, looking good, staying young and fit as we age. He's not doing it to please society any more than I am.

[Pax]

Unfortunately, many feminists in the US tend to wear blinders thinking that we've got it pretty good so why raise a fuss. We forget that women all over the world are treated worse than livestock, raped, beaten, subjected to "honor" killings...

Just today on CNN, yet another example of why we have to remain vigilant.

[PamNY]

I do think that beauty image is a big hurdle for many women to over come if they want to cycle, not just for teenagers. Of course Copenhageners have greatly overcome this issue. I know many women who would have trouble commuting due to their need to fulfill the mainstream image of beauty. Its really unfortunate that for many the need maintain their appearance is almost OCD in nature...

I don't understand this comment. I see many women who look like the commuters in those photographs of Copenhagen. I haven't conducted a survey, but I'm sure fear of being squashed by a bus or having a bike stolen is a much bigger issue than helmet hair.

Honestly, I've never given a thought to how I look when cycling, and have never even heard it discussed outside this forum.

Pam

[Grog]

If you're looking for a closer place to be an active feminist these days, try Canada. The number of steps backwards being taken these last few years is apalling.

http://www.straight.com/article-2049...united-nations

I still can't wrap my heads about unions being FINED for helping women fight for pay equity.

[OakLeaf]

I don't understand this comment. I see many women who look like the commuters in those photographs of Copenhagen. I haven't conducted a survey, but I'm sure fear of being squashed by a bus or having a bike stolen is a much bigger issue than helmet hair.

Honestly, I've never given a thought to how I look when cycling, and have never even heard it discussed outside this forum.

Pam

that link that CC posted a week or so ago claimed that the #1 reason women don't commute is because we don't want to get to work sweaty; with hair being a close second.

I agree, actually. I've done my share of getting to work sweaty, and without a shower (just trying to clean up in the bathroom sink) I stuck out like a sore thumb even in a pretty relaxed business environment.

Not quite sure what that has to do with feminism though... do you think men are more tolerant of other men being sweaty in a business environment, than they are of women?

[Irulan]

I quit labeling myself a feminist back in the mid 80s'. I was raised by what you might call an original feminist - my mom was a working mom in the 50's and 60's and I was raised by housekeepers. Between Gloria Steinem and bra burning, and political protests, I was raised in the thick of it. I took a lot of what the movement was teaching as gospel until I started living a real world life.

I dropped the label about 1984, when my husband was working 70-90 hours a week, and I was a student. I got really sick of having to explain to people that "splitting the housework 50/50" was at the minimum a really stupid idea, and more realistically, just not practical when he was pulling 36 hour shifts (with no sleep) in the oil field, and I was going to school. We much prefer the "everyone does something until the work is done" MO around here, as compared to a theoretical 50/50 thing.

Then I had kids. Boy, talk about dirty looks and getting devalued by your "sisters" when you choose to be a stay at home mom...

My personal belief is that a lot of the feminist movement has damaged families, and devalued men's roles in a healthy balanced family and relationships. How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"? Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

I know, I must sound like a dinosaur here. Maybe so. I believe it's important to value the differences that men and have, and to celebrate them. It's as important to look as the roles that have been forced onto men as it is to apply the same concept to women. Everyone is oppressed is someway or another, women shouldn't corner the market on it.

[sundial]

I'm a feminine feminist. I appreciate the small pleasures of maintaining a nice, comfortable, clean home for my husband, cooking, running errands for him, and doing whatever he needs so that all he needs to do is focus on his work. I also enjoy wearing things that remind me of an era gone by.....skorts.......long skirts.....hats.....things that make me feel...feminine. And being a white Christian lady I guess you could say that I am in a minority and I face a lot of "isms" as well.

[PamNY]

Not quite sure what that has to do with feminism though... do you think men are more tolerant of other men being sweaty in a business environment, than they are of women?

If you are asking me: nothing to do with feminism. I spoke up simply because I see quite a few elegantly-dressed women commuters.

Pam

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

For me feminism is an attitude about yourself and women- it's a way of life, it's not defined or rated by taking a class or going to a protest march (not that those things aren't also valid). It's a personal belief system built upon self worth, and is reflected on a daily basis in the way you live and the way you relate to, communicate with, and help others.

[lph]

My personal belief is that a lot of the feminist movement has damaged families, and devalued men's roles in a healthy balanced family and relationships. How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"? Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

I know, I must sound like a dinosaur here. Maybe so. I believe it's important to value the differences that men and have, and to celebrate them. It's as important to look as the roles that have been forced onto men as it is to apply the same concept to women. Everyone is oppressed is someway or another, women shouldn't corner the market on it.

At first reading I didn't agree with you, as I didn't see why feminism should equate to not putting family as a priority. I feel feminism should be simply having more options, including the option to choose whether I want to prioritize family or not. But I see you worded it as the "feminist movement", and that may well be, that everything other than women having careers has been frowned upon. That may be the price to pay, for raising consciousness around women's roles.

I don't feel that the differences between men and women per se are that important though, I feel that the differences are between people. No-one should feel themselves stuck in a mold they can't break out of, no matter their gender, and yes, men have definitely been pushed into roles too. Roles with more power and status, but roles nonetheless.

I don't know what to call it, but I subscribe to "gender-free role thinking" more than I would call myself a classic feminist.

[Thorn]

I don't know what to call it, but I subscribe to "gender-free role thinking" more than I would call myself a classic feminist.

Yeah, that's it. lph, you have a great way of putting things simple and clear.

I've feared that this thread would devolve into name calling. Let's face it, feminist is used as both an f-word and having a humpty-dumpty "it means what I think it means not what you think it means" usage.

It is just as wrong for someone to look down at a stay-at-home mom as it is for someone to say that all women should stay at home. I don't think either of those sentiments is correct. We should, however, whatever our gender may be, be able to choose the role that fits us and to be equally respected in that role.

To bring this down to a bicycling related item, last weekend I rode with a man who worked at the local hospital. As part of small talk, I asked what he did there.....he almost apologetically stated that he was a nurse. Eh? Apologize for being a nurse? Yet almost every male nurse I've met responds similarly. That's sad.

[Crankin]

Irulan and lph you said what I wanted to say much more eloquently. When I studied feminist therapy earlier in the year, I realized that there are even large schisms between what different feminist theories purport.
I think a lot of people devalue men, too. My DH cannot stand the way men are shown to be absolutely stupid in much of the media, in particular in regards to care of the home and children. Is he so unusual?
As far as the cycling goes, well, I didn't like getting to work sweaty, with helmet hair, either. But because I care about cycling, I learned to keep hygiene supplies at work, clean up in the sink, and look totally presentable with the clothes I kept in my closet a work. Riding to work was a priority for me, hence I made the effort. I find that even thinking about the effort is the deal killer for a lot of people, both men and women. In my 9 years at my last job, only one other person ever rode.

[Zen]

How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"?

I'm sure there are men who do that as well.

Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

Does that mean only women can care for children?
I'm no fan of day care (or kids, for that matter) but sometimes it's what has to be done. Many couples with children aren't disciplined enough to get by on one salary.
Then there's the single parent. Day care is sometimes a necessity.

[Crankin]

I am not going to start an argument here. Really.
But, out in the real world, there are 2 very nice, well adjusted young men in their 20's.
They are mine. They were in various kinds of day care starting at age 6 weeks for the youngest (OK, that was part time, with dad doing the rest for the first year) and four months.
If you really want my opinion, most people don't know how to be parents and *that* is the problem.

[Irulan]

ok ok, leaving the day care issue out of it...(I shouldn't have thrown that into the mix, sorry) There's plenty to say about feminism without that.

I do think that modern contemporary feminism ( and much of our culture) teaches "me first" for women, at the sacrifice of families and partnerships. My experience as a tail end boomer, (1960) is that the mind set of feminism is that the value of an individual's WOMAN's needs, even when in a family, is greater than the value of the other members of the families needs. The ostracizing of women who choose be a primary care giver/SAHM is not imaginary; it's very real. Maybe less so than in the 80's when I had mine, but I got a LOT of crap for it.
Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

I do accept that women's roles were limited by society for a long time, and that a lot of opportunities have been created in contemporary times. But I don't buy the 50/50 thing at all, and I don't buy devaluing of men especially by some women's studies programs (putting flame suit on)

Maybe I sound bitter; I don't know. My values have moved way center from the liberal, feminist, extreme left wing household I was raised in. I've experienced personally families destroyed by women leaving not horrible situations, just because they "needed" to do something new or different that didn't include the children they bore and the family they should have committed to. Never mind the abandoned children left behind. I have experienced first hand the hate and disdain for men that some women have for men in the name of feminism, sisterhood and women's rights and it makes me really sad.

Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.