Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?

[Eden]

Ya know… I recently read that it is more often than not it is pointless to try to talk someone out of viewpoint…. worse yet that often, in perverse opposition to reason, presenting a person with facts only entrenches them more strongly in their beliefs… so I'm going to remember that this was a discussion primarily about intentionally participating in sports where concussion is likelihood or even an inevitability and not about mandatory helmet wearing on bike rides (even if it was peripherally compared to that debate).

[smilingcat]

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

I'm jut glad that parents and coaches are taking concussions more seriously. Even my nephew said something about concussion in soccer players from hitting the ball with head.

[Crankin]

Nope, no one can change my mind. And, I won't get into it with sarcasm. But, I do evaluate risks in *all* situations, not just riding. I've had a concussion from a car accident and accidentally slamming the point of my car door into my head, while opening it (when I was getting in the car to meet Hirakukibou for a ride!). I am extremely risk averse in everything, not just cycling! Less so, than when I was younger, but when you are brought up to fear everything, I've come a long way. It's funny, because my "regular" friends think I am a dare devil. There's a lot of things I evaluate and don't do, that have nothing to do with cycling.

[shootingstar]

I've tried to stay away from concussion discussion 'cause I'm one of those with cumulative injury. Not sure how many I've had. Just know I've had more than enough. My last one, if it were to happen to an average person with 0 or 1 concussion prior then most likely, that person would have walked away with a mild one. I ended up without short term memory for a while, I have no recollection of ambulance ride nor the hospital stay nor being discharged from the hospital after a week or so stay. Neurosurgeon said that there will be no next one for me.

This is just more details of what happened to me on Jan. 1, 2015 (this is how I started a new year):

Like you smilingcat for your last concussion (I assume your neurosurgeon meant if there was another one next time, then you could be disabled.), I have no recollection of what happened for 3 hrs. or so after the other cyclist crashed into me. I was turning a corner on a bike path.

I don't even have memory when the collision occurred. No memory of me waiting (and babbling) by the bike path while waiting for ambulance, no memory of ambulance ride, no memory of being rolled in the CT scanner at hospital. It was like the movies: I woke up in some pain and I was lying on a spinal board in hospital bed. I also had a neck brace put on me. My partner and neurological intern was bending over me. My partner asked me a question to test my memory: "When did your father die?"

I was able to specify correctly: 2 wks. ago. Then I cried and said my father was no longer around. That he was dead. My partner was relieved because he told me, my memory was finally coming back.

Jack, my partner, said that after the collision, I got up and sort of walked. I was talking and repeating, repeating some sentences. This is why Jack was uncertain if there was anything wrong with me. But bystanders and he had 911 call placed. There was an off-duty police officer and someone who seemed to have first response experience in calming me down and keeping me warm. I don't remember any of this.

Anyway, my sister-emergency medicine doctor explained to me that: immediately after a concussion accident, sometimes a person's short term memory is lost temporarily...that what you said to me, I wouldn't have remembered what you said at all. Also me looking at a person, but not seeing nor retaining visual memory right at that moment. In otherwise: I was a walking, talking robot, not undersanding anything nor even retaining visual understanding/memory of what I was seeing in front of my face.

Every few hrs. for 24 hrs., hospital staff asked me a series of same questions to test my memory.


I had my memory back but first month, even reading a computer screen was exhausting, scrolling screen up and down was too much. Physicians request that there be no computer screen time for first few wks. (this will vary, depending on severity). Not even iPhone. I was dizzy for first 2 months ...to point I got dizzy just turning slowly in kitchen to chop food. So Jack did 90% of food preparation and grocery shopping for lst 2 months.

My recovery included walking for 1/2 hr. with Jack daily. So we went to coffee shop. I could not even walk at night over snow and ice. During my recovery, I noticed when I would jog down a grocery aisle to find something quickly, I got slightly dizzy: it was because of all the different colours and shapes on shelves whizzing by. My physician told me that some patients are just dizzy being in a room with wallpaper designs.

I was back on bike in June 2015 and commuting to work. At this stage I was back to work full-time. But I was on disability leave for lst few months.

For Nandy:
I have never been a cycling competitor. I have never cycled with drop down handlebars. For last few years, probably cycle at a reasonable speed ..but under 18 km./hr. I don't time myself much..I just know how long it takes me to do xxxx distance to xxxx destination. I've been a cyclist, car-free for nearly last 24 yrs. I have done several multi-wk. cycling tours with my own loads over the years. I will be 57 this yr.

Because I don't drive, then I rely on my own mobility to walk, cycle or take transit. Hence, I do have to ensure I reduce risks. ....not just for health and fitness, but for work and shopping. Sometimes my partner is somewhere else because we have 2 homes. So I do need to be able-bodied to do stuff solo too.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here is gratitude for our brain: Our brain works SO HARD for us. Our brain is the command control center for everything that we do. It controls every step we make, every movement, our speech, vision, it regulates other bodily functions, etc.

[Nandy]

Sure, anecdotes are fine, I'm not saying that you shouldn't use a helmet in non-competitive situations- just that enormous blanket statements insinuating that everyone in all riding situations everywhere must wear one is unhelpful, and in some ways actually harms cycling. In other anecdotes, I know more people who suffered TBIs from walking than from cycling, and probably 80% of people I know are cyclists.

I also realize the choice is massively dependent on conditions, and if most of us here live in North America, the roads are usually very hostile to us. It took me years of full-time riding in Boston to get comfortable without a helmet (and only after visiting Amsterdam where it clicked that it makes so much sense and that's how I want to live, and followed up on relevant research and started actively fighting for sensible urban planning), but Buffalo is different because the drivers here are so much more negligent and the infrastructure is so abysmal- but they're normally speeding so fast I'm unlikely to survive in the event of a crash anyway, foam hat or not. We need real solutions in this country, helmets can help individuals in some specific situations but it's a distraction from the actual issue.

From an individual perspective, it makes sense to reduce your personal risk in small way possible, especially because we're such an out group in this country- simply waiting for adequate laws and infrastructure isn't going to cut it. From a societal perspective, helmet fixation is generally used by anti-cycling groups (like automakers) to make cycling seem ultra-dangerous and to scare people away from it, and becomes a band-aid to shift responsibility to cyclists instead of working for solutions that will actually increase safety, further discouraging people to ride (as well as greatly increasing the risk for the riders out there- safety in numbers). This http://http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html is a great little overview of the misconceptions and ways from a societal standpoint in which excessive pressure to wear helmets can be harmful.

But anyway, to get back to the original post- comparing all forms of cycling to MMA fighting or headbutting each other in football and mocking "the bike helmet debate" just serves to exacerbate this dangerous trend. To the people accusing me of derailing this thread: its title is "Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?". Are concussions bad? Yes. You should try to avoid them. Are repeated concussions a frequent, unavoidable, and inherent quality to all forms of cycling, comparable to intentionally punching each other in the head like boxing? No, of course not. This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

[shootingstar]

This is ridiculous. Seriously, take a little vacation to pretty much any place in continental Europe, it'll change your life and put things in perspective.https://youtu.be/ZMv3OB6XHvQ

Sure. I have already for 4 wks. We brought our bikes along and cycling : Germany, France, Prague (cycling infrastructure is more like North American cities) and 5 days in Copenhagen. My partner headed up the Velo-city 2012 cycling conference in Vancouver. It's only been North America twice. He's been working hard (volunteer work) on cycling infrastructure matters in Vancouver and Toronto with the municipality for past 20 years when we lived there (well, he's still involved in Vancouver). Out of his own money, my partner did 3 additional cycling trips in Spain, different parts of Germany and France .....where part of the time was spent documenting cycling infrastructure and bikeshares there.

He and I are talking about a trip abroad to celebrate our 25th anniversary. Not sure if it's this year or whenever.

I've fallen off my bike 9 times in my cycling years. Except for concussion accident, other times, I was on ice and was cycling super slow (10 km./hr.) because I knew it was ice..but realized it was too late. So I fell over in slow motion but luckily never on my head/face. Thankfully no other cyclists and cars were around. My 8 falls had nothing to do with lack of cycling infrastructure or anyone else. It was weather related and my own judgement. I'm mortal, fallible and imperfect.

Best wishes, Nandy.

[Nandy]

I didn't mean you, specifically. It seems like way too many Americans don't know how much better it is elsewhere and I frequently get that "whoa, you ride a bike to get around town? You're so XTREME". Like I emphasized earlier, choosing to use a helmet can be a beneficial personal decision, particularly if you're prone to falls. It's when people get into that whole "everyone on any bike at any time must wear a helmet because it's exactly as dangerous as MMA fighting" that I start to question their research and intentions. Besides, the great thing abut bikes in bad conditions is that you're already going a manageable speed and are pretty safe, compared to other modes of transport (see that video of winter commuting in Utrecht I posted up there).

[lph]

Ya know… I recently read that it is more often than not it is pointless to try to talk someone out of viewpoint…. worse yet that often, in perverse opposition to reason, presenting a person with facts only entrenches them more strongly in their beliefs… so I'm going to remember that this was a discussion primarily about intentionally participating in sports where concussion is likelihood or even an inevitability and not about mandatory helmet wearing on bike rides (even if it was peripherally compared to that debate).

Eden, I read something fascinating recently from Dan Ariely, the human behaviour guy. He wrote about what happens when someone with a strong opinion on something is confronted with an extreme opinion *in the same direction*. The tendency was for them to be more conciliatory, and more open to changing their minds. Which is really weird.

And FWIW, I've gotten so mellow with the years that the only bike-related thing that makes me froth at the mouth any more is bike salmon. I bike as I please, and you bike as you please, but if I catch you biking upstream on *my* side I swear I will scream at you ;-)

[Nandy]

That reminds me of this great video (http://http://www.vox.com/2015/12/1/...m-mansplainers) about a famous math problem that most people have a natural inclination to guess wrong on. Even when the correct answer was explained to people only a few more changed their minds, but that number grew significantly when they were encouraged to conduct their own experiments on it.

I'm a firm believer that presenting people with well-documented facts and opportunities to do more research can influence public opinion. Growing up in this culture, I used to unquestioningly wear helmets, just because that seemed like the right thing to do. When my husband stopped wearing one at work a few years ago, I was concerned. Looking at facts helped me understand how helmets actually function, how they're useful and when, how they're made, what they'll actually protect against, how laws and peer pressure to wear them affect people, and more effective ways to make cycling safer among many other things. People need information to make informed decisions. There is no single correct answer. Without information, people tend to make irrational choices based on their unexamined feelings or what has become basically folklore.

Ride smart!

[Crankin]

I am definitely not frothing at the mouth, because I will choose to do what I do, and others will choose for themselves, in this case.

[rebeccaC]

I'm mortal, fallible and imperfect.

indeed, as we all are…..and we do need more infrastructure advocates like your partner and you!

I see some of the best european cities for bicycling as those who have put the onus on society to provide a safe environment to ride in, Amsterdam and Copenhagen being good examples. Then there are also a lot of cities like central London and Rome where you have to learn how not to die. With good infrastructure you can also have more car drivers also being cyclists thus being more positive about bicycling issues, again like in Amsterdam etc. There are also some U.S. and Canadian cities that have done/are doing some really good work on infrastructure and can be used as models for other cities. I guess I just like to be positive about how I see and advocate for bicycling being a legitimate mode of urban mass transportation. I'm sure that being born and raised in France has an important role it that. I also feel that my generation is seeing bicycling as more of a transportation issue rather than just exercise and leisure, which gives me hope.
...being protective of my head, i like my brain, is something i like too.

but if I catch you biking upstream on *my* side I swear I will scream at you ;-)

and i've seen the screaming at someone riding the wrong way, in Amsterdam especially