Kayak/canoe recommendations?

[lph]

I'va hardly ever paddled a canoe, and I'm a relative beginner to kayaking, but I gotta say I love love love my kayak. Not my actual kayak as such, but the whole concept of this sleek, efficient thing you "put on" and steer by leaning and shifting, and that can pick up speed fast and pop happily through waves too. I don't think I'd be very happy in a canoe. The kayak I have now is already fairly narrow and fairly low-volume, but I'm still jonesing for a greenland kayak, very narrow and low-volume. I hate feeling like I'm sitting in the bottom of a bucket.

[goldfinch]

Jolt, I looked at the Wilderness Systems Pungo 120 that you tried. It is in the recreational kayak category, longer than one for shooting rapids but not designed like a sea kayak with the v shaped narrow hull. It doesn't seem bad. The cockpit is large which could mean that in some situations you could get more splash inside. But it really isn't a boat for wavy conditions, as will be true of other kayaks of this style. There is no drain plug so if you do take on some water you have to dump it out. It is fairly wide, to help with stability, so that is why you might feel that it is uncomfortably wide for paddling, but the width seems appropriate for the style. If you get a kayak of this style (flat bottom, not "v") and it gets too narrow than you have a stability issue. It is a bit heavy and you would need a cart for hauling it around by yourself. (I can recommend a cart if you go that route, there are some excellent ones and some terrible ones) The kayak gets good reviews and looks like a good recreational kayak, for relatively calm conditions and not major white water.

[KnottedYet]

Is there somewhere that you could try a Necky Chatham? They make 3 lengths. (I like the 17 footer http://www.neckykayaks.com/kayaks/to...am_17_polymer/ )

[OakLeaf]

Just like bikes, a 'yak needs to fit. I did a whole lot of research on "properties" of kayaks but without nearly enough understanding, and wound up with one that's too big for me and just uncomfortable and impossible to paddle efficiently.

It's good to acquaint yourself with the concepts of primary and secondary stability, and have a clear idea of what kind of paddling you plan to do. Then do some rentals/test paddling (IME it's a lot easier to find quality rental 'yaks than bikes), but pay attention not only to how the boat feels in the water (as I did), but how you feel in it.

[Jolt]

Jolt, I looked at the Wilderness Systems Pungo 120 that you tried. It is in the recreational kayak category, longer than one for shooting rapids but not designed like a sea kayak with the v shaped narrow hull. It doesn't seem bad. The cockpit is large which could mean that in some situations you could get more splash inside. But it really isn't a boat for wavy conditions, as will be true of other kayaks of this style. There is no drain plug so if you do take on some water you have to dump it out. It is fairly wide, to help with stability, so that is why you might feel that it is uncomfortably wide for paddling, but the width seems appropriate for the style. If you get a kayak of this style (flat bottom, not "v") and it gets too narrow than you have a stability issue. It is a bit heavy and you would need a cart for hauling it around by yourself. (I can recommend a cart if you go that route, there are some excellent ones and some terrible ones) The kayak gets good reviews and looks like a good recreational kayak, for relatively calm conditions and not major white water.

Thanks for those tips...I know that kayak is supposed to be pretty good, and I thought it was, but just felt like it was a little big on me (though part of the problem was also that the paddle I was using could have been a bit longer--I ended up using a high angle technique that resulted in a lot of water dripping in). The LL Bean "Calypso" kayaks I saw they had looked like they would have fit me better--same length but a little narrower with a smaller cockpit. In fact I was surprised that's not what they put me in, but there were a couple of kids who I think ended up using those boats. Lighter weight too...you're right about the Pungo being heavy to haul around and load onto the car by myself. That would be one advantage of a solo canoe like the ones Old Town makes...one weighs 43 lbs and the other (which of course is a lot more expensive) weighs 33 lbs. A lot of the kayaks seem to run heavier than that, and I would think would be more awkward to pick up and carry.

[Cataboo]

Jolt,

If you live near Freeport - Head to Lincoln Canoe & Kayak. The owner Mark's a really nice guy & has a lot of knowledge to share. THey do sell used & new kayaks,I think they give classes & I think they rent boats as well. I know they have the quoddy lite, which is a lightweight small person's boat, but it may be more than what you want to spend initially:
http://www.lincolncanoe.com/boats.html

Rent some boats if you can and get an idea of what you like out of a kayak... But I guess the question is... What type of paddler do you want to be? Do you just want to toodle along & look at birds (if so, a rec kayak might be fine for you) Do you want to go long distances & carry camping gear? Are you the kind of person who would be happy buying say a hybrid bike or a trek fx and would stay with that, without upgrading to a road bike? Because kayaks are the same way - if you buy a rec boat or a more recreational like touring kayak, some people are going to want a real sea kayak very quickly afterwards... others are okay with the performance they get out of a hybrid bike or a recreational type boat.

Regarding canoe vs kayak... I can fit 10 days of food, water, camping gear in my kayak - so if you want to carry gear, you can do it with a kayak. you're just not going to carry the kitchen sink & huge chairs like you can with a canoe. But you can take more than you would backpacking. I'm not really going to comment on canoes, because I've never really bothered with them. I like what I can do with my kayaks and have never not been frustrated with the speed I can achieve in a canoe - but maybe I've never been in a really good canoe.

If you are going with a kayak - I would recommend against a recreational kayak - you want something with 2 bulkheads that won't sink if flooded. A kayak with only one bulkhead (the smaller calypso is like this) will have the tendancy to needle nose in the water if the cockpit gets flooded.. it is very hard to get back into a kayak that is floating one end up in the water. Consider checking craigslist... Used boats can normally be bought & sold for about the same price you pay for them, and they're a good solution until you find exactly what you want.

I would recommend against a pungo. If you want something from LL bean, the only boats they sell that I'd consider for a small person is a wilderness systems tempest 165 or the calypso 14 that has 2 bulkheads or the perception carolina. You may just outgrow a calypso or a carolina within a year or so... you're not going to outgrow a tempest 165. It's a kayak that most kayakers keep around even after they move onto faster longer kevlar or fiberglass boats - it's not the fastest kayak or anything like that - but it's a very good compromise of speed vs stability vs maneuverability. It does everything very well and is very predictable... I keep one to put new kayakers who are out paddling with me in and to take to the ocean to surf waves or to use when I know whatever I'm doing is going to beat up a boat and i don't want to risk my fiberglass or kevlar boats. But other small person's plastic boats that are still real kayaks are necky elizas & the elaho lv. A perception avatar 15.5. If you are a small light person, check out the current designs raven - it's designed as a real sea kayak for kids, but it's a 26 lb boat or something for around $1,000... if you're under 120 lbs, you'd be fine in it.

Rolling kayaks - I only do it when I do something stupid. Or when I'm surfing waves. Or when it's 100 degrees & humid outside & I want to cool down. but if you live in Maine, there's a high risk of hypothermia with the water temps there if you can't get yourself back in your boat quickly. So I would definitely make sure that if you get a kayak you practice self & group rescues. You don't have to know how to roll, but know how to get back into your boat quickly. Also practice wet exits. I can't stress enough practicing how to get in & out of your boat, even if you buy the most stable boat in the world and never intend to actually flip a boat or have to... When it does happen to you for whatever reason, you want to be able to keep your head & deal with the situation as fast as possible. I practice group & self rescues at least a couple of times a season, despite the fact that I know I have a bombproof roll. I practice rolling. Because you can't predict what's going to happen out on the water - whether a storm will come up quickly, whether a motor boat or jet ski will decide to buzz you (I was surfing behind a rescue air boat out on the local reservoir on Saturday... You don't expect to be in 3 feet waves on a reservoir, but at the point that they do come up - you need to be prepared for what to do in case you capsize.

Re putting a boat on your car - light boats cost money. I'm 5'1 & I can put my 65 lb 17'8 long kayak on top of my subaru outback myself. Invest in a good rack solution and you'll be fine. The yakima boat loader arm is what I use - but thule has the hullavators. I generally only use my longer boat if I'm going on a fast paddle, a long tour, or have someone with me - and use my 15'8 kayak for short tours or when I'm out toodling on my own.

Regarding what Goldfinch said about sea kayaks and turning and stability... There are a huge number of sea kayaks and you can't generalize... It's like talking about cars and comparing how a toyota yaris handles compared to a mercedes - yes, they are both cars, but the similarities end there. The width, the length, and the design of a sea kayak has a lot to do with how it handles, same with cars. Is a shorter rec boat going to be easier to turn the a sea kayak, probably in general, but get a greenland style sea kayak with a ton of rocker and a sea kayak will turn on a dime. I can turn my 17'8" sea kayak on a dime, and turn it by tilting my hips. Stability - that has everything to do with the width of the boat & the design of the hull. I paddle 20-22 inch boats that are considered unstable - to me they feel perfectly stable, because I'm used to it... However, the lack of stability makes them that more responsive in turning and that much faster. If you're a small person, you are generally going to be able to paddle boats that much taller people think are very unstable, because you're not very tall, so you don't have your head/torso being a huge lever arm. I get bored if I'm in a stable boat.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you really need a well designed low volume boat. That's one of the biggest problems that small paddlers face - boats that are designed for big heavy people will not handle well for a small paddler - you don't sink the boat into the water deep enough to make it sink to get the water line length, so you are effectively paddling a shorter boat -you end up with more of the boat sticking up out of the water, which is horrible when you are having to fight wind, because the kayak is going to be blowing all over the place.

[goldfinch]

Regarding what Goldfinch said about sea kayaks and turning and stability... There are a huge number of sea kayaks and you can't generalize... It's like talking about cars and comparing how a toyota yaris handles compared to a mercedes - yes, they are both cars, but the similarities end there. The width, the length, and the design of a sea kayak has a lot to do with how it handles, same with cars. Is a shorter rec boat going to be easier to turn the a sea kayak, probably in general, but get a greenland style sea kayak with a ton of rocker and a sea kayak will turn on a dime. I can turn my 17'8" sea kayak on a dime, and turn it by tilting my hips.

Fair point and a good post.

My experience is with whitewater and what is suitable for it and I am not familiar with recreational style kayaks and have only used a sea kayak a few times. A greenland style kayak will turn easily but it also will roll easily, will it not?

[Cataboo]

Greenland kayaks were developed by the Inuit to use to hunt... They'd go out to kill seals with them in freezing water temperatures doing open water ocean crossings and dealing with the surf. And they carried the seals they killed home on the decks of their kayaks. A kayak that is unstable enough that it rolls easily in those temperatures is suicide & their families wouldn't get food... It's a design that's been tested by thousands of years. The inuit did train their sense of balance using greenland ropes and could do a ton of different types of rolls...

So yes, greenland kayaks are easily rolled if you want to roll. If you don't want to roll, generally they don't... If you watch someone who does know a lot of greenland rolls, it's like watching water ballet... Alison lives around here & is just beautiful to watch and I'm pretty sure that her accidently rolling over her boat hardly ever happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN4QrNVbnv8

Most kayaks now a days are greenland derived. Some people still make classic greenland skin on frames... And the sea kayaks are all compromises... racing boats will go very fast in a straight line & be hard to turn - so people put rudders on them to make them easy to turn. Greenland kayaks will be more maneuverable, but will sacrifice speed... Other boards are made to be surf/rough water condition kayaks...


I'd call greenland kayaks stable... But then I've got a 19" wide surf ski that has absolutely no primary stability and I absolutely cannot relax in (yet)... But if you watch big ocean surf ski races... There are all sorts of people that race surf skis out in the surf & ocean without flipping. Try getting in a k1 racing kayak sometime... and those are unstable. But people learn to paddle them without having to brace constantly.

From a whitewater background, I'm sure you know that boats can flip in response to conditions, that's why white water kayakers learn combat rolls. And that's why you learn to brace and how to read the water currents. And depending on the design of the white water boat, how easy it is to roll or do tricks varies... And even in a canoe - there are some things you don't do... standing up in your canoe is probably a good way to flip it over.

Most of the time, it is hard to actually flip a sea kayak. If you ever get in one, spend some time wiggling your hips back and forth (or lifting your knee up on either side) - almost all of them have pretty good secondary stability - you can lean them without flipping and you're meant to do that to steer them. I can probably count on two hands the number of times that I've flipped a sea kayak in the 5 years that I've been kayaking... A couple of times were because I leaned way over to do something stupid, but most of the times were because I took the kayak out into breaking waves on the beach to play... repeatedly. That's just been a really fun learning curve - but I roll over, I roll back up. Not a biggie.

.

[goldfinch]

Thanks Cat, interesting post. I would like to try out the greenland style someday.

[Cataboo]

I'va hardly ever paddled a canoe, and I'm a relative beginner to kayaking, but I gotta say I love love love my kayak. Not my actual kayak as such, but the whole concept of this sleek, efficient thing you "put on" and steer by leaning and shifting, and that can pick up speed fast and pop happily through waves too. I don't think I'd be very happy in a canoe. The kayak I have now is already fairly narrow and fairly low-volume, but I'm still jonesing for a greenland kayak, very narrow and low-volume. I hate feeling like I'm sitting in the bottom of a bucket.

YOU NEED TO COME VISIT ME & KAYAK WITH ME

You'll fit my boats

[lph]

YOU NEED TO COME VISIT ME & KAYAK WITH ME

You'll fit my boats

Yeh.

[tulip]

Cataboo, remember to let me know if you ever want to sell that Tempest 165. I love that boat for all the reasons you cite. Great post, BTW.

[Cataboo]

Cataboo, remember to let me know if you ever want to sell that Tempest 165. I love that boat for all the reasons you cite. Great post, BTW.

Oh, other small person plastic boat - p&h delfin, p&h capella, valley avocet lv

And for all the reason I posted, I still keep it around - so it may not be something I'm selling anytime soon, I will tell you if I ever see someone sellling one used though. Its funny at any of the local kayak club's rescue training, about 80% of the boats that people arrive with are tempest 165 or 170s... It's just that useful of a boat, and noone wants to scratch up their composite boats.

But you're welcome to come up & borrow it - we never actually have gotten together.

We tested out how strong a tempest 170 was on Saturday, by doing this to it twice. Long story as to why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIy3_-ZQ1QM

[tulip]

But you're welcome to come up & borrow it - we never actually have gotten together.
]

Thanks for the list of other small person plastic boats. I don't consider myself particularly small at 5'-6" and 127 lbs, but the Tempest 165 is perfect for me.

AND, you're welcome to come down and bring your boats. I live one mile from the river--downriver from the rapids on the nice, flat water. Shoot, we can paddle all the way to Jamestown.

[Cataboo]

Tulip, you definitely count as one - you're a lightweight paddler & you're going to have the same problems as a shorter paddler. when most kayaks are designed for 180-220 lb guys to be able to carry another 40 lbs of gear... And then when most kayak manufacturers don't bother to actually redesign them as a low volume boat, but just cut down the deck height & then claim they're a lv boat....

how much sewage went into the james in the last few storms? At least 500 million gallons went into the chesapeake...

I've been avoiding urban waterways lately.

*shudder*