Odd?

[oxysback]

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

[limewave]

I think if she can control herself at daycare, then she probably doesn't have ODD.

I really don't have any other advice except for the tried and true time outs and following through on consequences. Meaning, if you say you're going to do it, you'd better darn well do it. Yes, it sucks. When you ground your kid from the tv, you feel like you're grounded, too.

It'll get worse before it gets better. Hang in there. You can do it!

I agree that it's important to set cosequences that I can follow through with. The problem is, she won't sit in time-out. I have on many occassions spent 3+ hours putting her in time out. I just can't do that anymore now that I have a 15 month old. I've taken away TV, her toys, special outtings--it doesn't seem to effect her.

I know this is a cycling forum. I just needed a somewhat safe place to vent. I tried talking about this with my parents, but they want nothing to do with it. I had to let it out somewhere before I imploded

[Veronica]

I had a student a couple of years ago with ODD. I do think it's goes beyond being stubborn. He was a great kid one on one - very bright, very funny. But he loved to be the class clown. I worked on training the rest of the class to ignore him because his fits if I said something to him could horrific. It was not a pleasant year.

Has your daughter always been difficult or is it a new thing since baby bro came along? Have other things changed in your family? What's your husband's role? Is she just as difficult for him?

I know it's hard as a parent to medicate your child. But if something works for her it's worth it. If she had asthma would you deny her an inhaler? I say this because my first three years of teaching were at a private school were all the kids had ADD. I had one student whose parents REALLY wanted drugs to be the answer. Over the years they tried everything and nothing really worked. They finally looked into diet. Taking him off wheat and sugar totally changed him. Same year, different student, parents desperately wanted to keep him off drugs. They had tried diets, biofeedback, various behavior management techniques. They finally put him on Ritalin. He became a different kid too - in a good way.

The human body is so amazingly complex.

I hope you get this worked out.

Veronica

[shootingstar]

Would agree with oxy, that she is fine at school...which she probably DOES understand her baisc behavioural boundaries outside of home, when she is supervised by other non-parental, supportive, adults.

I don't have much to add but never give up. As an aunt observing nieces and nephews growing up:

A sister had big problems with her son when he was around 5-7 yrs. old. He couldn't calm down, whine, etc. She and hubby finally figured it helpful to find a safe outlet after he returned from school to run around/walk in park with him for only 20 min. or so near home. That seemed to divert son's energy that wouldn't turn into something negative.

Nephew is now smart young man (23 yrs.), calm and relaxed... Same boy who had alot of tantrum controlling time-outs compared to his older sis.

Similar situation for a mother-high school teacher. Her husband was also a teacher. Son was again hyperactive, stubborn at 6-9 yrs. They found it helpful to have him watch tv, laugh at cartoons for 20 min. or 1/2 hr. at noon for lunch, etc. before he went back to school.. it calmed their son before energy turned negative. I last heard the young man was a mentor-teenager helping younger kids on their computer literacy skills. Obviously the kid learned patience, calmness... to mentor others!

Looks like a pattern at least for these 2 children....generally well-behaved at school, does well in school but as soon as they got home, the kid let loosened up negatively unless their energy was redirected elsewhere as soon as they came home. For these 2 children it was a regular activity that they liked to do to expend that energy for a brief time.


She's a good kid, don't give up. Kudos to you and hubby to take time to ask, figure out behavioural patterns.

Veronica's suggestion on certain food triggers and timing of what child should eat is useful also.

[jessmarimba]

She sounds like me when I was that age. I turned out ok! And that determination sure helped a lot over the years.

But I was an absolute angel at school, and could be an absolute terror at home. Always in trouble, screaming, throwing things, whatever. A battle over something minute could escalate in a matter of seconds. And I KNEW when they were losing patience and were about to start screaming (or spanking) and I pushed it all the more, being well aware of the consequences.

I don't remember enough to be able to think of what would've worked instead though. I just know I had to win each and every battle, and that I had infinitely more time and energy than my overtaxed mother...and I was very aware of those circumstances. I also had a younger sister that mom had to watch, so 3 hours of throwing me in time out wouldn't have worked either.

Good luck. I outgrew it eventually, but I'm sure you'll find a quicker solution.

[limewave]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I'm going to print these out and read through them tonight when I have some time. What I skimmed so far there seems to be some good points and alternatives to try.

[Chile Pepper]

First off, hugs. It's so hard to have to face something like this. I had some similar issues with my older son (now 11). I remember holding the door closed for time outs, while he was screaming and trying to get out on the other side. I also wound up yelling a lot--I never spanked, but my yelling was like a slap in the face. That was definitely not how I had envisioned motherhood or the kind of mother I thought I would be. It was just awful. He and I are both strong-willed and somewhat controlling, and we would just spiral down into these power struggles.

I eventually figured out that it was best to avoid the struggles--not in the sense of walking on egg shells, but simply to prevent nonproductive conflict. A book I found helpful in that area was Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles. For me, it was important to figure out what we did that got us into the struggles and then find ways to either ignore the trigger when it happened or redirect (though I have to say I'm not good at redirecting). It was also important for me to realize I could say, "I'm really upset right now, so we're going to deal with this later when we're both calmer." You don't have to set consequences in the moment. You can walk away and come back later.

I also found that sometimes my son was right--that what I wanted to have happen wasn't what he needed in the moment, and frequently what I was trying to do wasn't that important. It's not that he won or was controlling me, but that he had a legitimate reason for whatever it was he wanted or needed, and it just took me a while to see it. Once he knew I was willing to listen to (and hear) his needs, he was more cooperative. For example, when he was around 8, he refused to go to his annual medical check. My first thought was that I would take him kicking and screaming if I had to, but instead I calmly sat down and asked some questions to figure out why he didn't want to go. It turned out he didn't want the doctor checking his privates, so we agreed that he would go to the appointment but ask the doctor to skip that part as it really wasn't necessary. Problem solved without the usual power struggle.

I can also tell you it does get better. My son is still fairly quick-tempered, strong-willed, and controlling. That's just his personality. But he is also a delightful member of our family, and we have a lot of fun together.

[northstar]

Have you read Kids are Worth It? (Barbara Coloroso) Totally shifted my perspective on control, power, etc...I found it totally uplifting and grounding. Might want to try that one in addition to the reading you've been doing. And Playful Parenting. Loved it. Sorry I can't help much beyond the book recommendations - but hang in there. I've heard that can be a tough age. We're still living in toddler land at our house.

[sfa]

(((Hugs))) How frustrating for you! I've heard of ODD and have met one child who was diagnosed with it, and I tend to agree that if your daughter isn't having behavioral problems in school/daycare then she probably doesn't have ODD.

When we were having serious behavioral/stubbornness issues with my stepson his psychologist recommended the book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" and I was amazed at how the suggestions in that book actually WORKED. This was a child who didn't care about consequences for his actions (and I'm talking serious problems--he was suspended from school once for threatening a teacher and was held back a grade because he simply refused to do homework) and while the recommendations didn't change him into a perfect child, they helped. A lot. It was all about changing your methods of interaction so that problem solving was collaborative instead of confrontational. We didn't learn about the book until he was in middle school, but we wished we had had it back in preschool. We've since used these methods with my daughter to great effect as well.

The other thing you might want to try (and this also worked with my daughter) is to set up a behavioral system like they use at daycare. Since you know she does well there, why not try to replicate a system that she's familiar with and respects? In my daughter's classes this has always been some version of a chart where you start on green for the day and infractions of the rules make you move to yellow and then red. If you stay on green, you earn tickets for little rewards (you can save them up for big rewards or blow them each week on a crappy plastic ring). If you get to red, you deal with consequences (generally privileges taken away). But find out what they use at daycare and use the same method at home.

Good luck!

Sarah