Brevet this October - insane idea?

[OakLeaf]

Just for an ordinary century without too much climbing, a cyclist needs a minimum of a 12 mph average.

The cut-off for a 200K brevet is 13:30. That's a 9.1 mph average.

You have to get out and find routes with at least 3-5 miles of continuous climbing

She's in Indiana. She probably can't go anywhere without climbing a 15% grade, but she'd probably have to go at least 200 miles south to find a 3 mile climb. I'm biased because I live in similar terrain, but IMO the short steep stuff is at least as hard as long and shallow. And anyway, the brevet she's planning will be in terrain very similar to where she lives. There's no reason for her to train in very different terrain.

And, train with a GPS bike computer so that you learn to recognize the grades, how steep you can go, when you need to shift down, and even what grades are just so steep it is smarter to get off the bike and walk.

I love my GPS, but for one thing, the real-time grade isn't super accurate (if you really need a gadget, a $20 bubble inclinometer is the way to go) - and more to the point, you don't need a gadget to figure out your own legs. She'll learn to climb by climbing, not by staring at a computer screen. She'll learn how it feels when her legs are running out of steam and she's going to have to unclip. She'll learn when to power up a hill and when to sit and spin. No gadgets required.

[Catrin]

Darcy, IndySteel, LPH, Knotted, Zen, and Oakleaf,

Thank you, all of you, for your encouragement and comments. I have also been discussing this with my personal trainer who is a mountain biker (also does road riding) and we are going to tweak my workouts to help support this work. I am summarizing your comments to him at his request so he can help me with this.

Darcy - right now my average speed is a little low, it ranges between 10.9 to 11.5 depending on the day. I am unsure what my average cadence is, every time I think to look at it it seems to be between 80-95 unless I am going up-hill. My uphill speeds have been improving, anywhere from 8.5-11.5 but there are not many real hills in Central Indiana to practice on.

I am already working on alternative places that I can drive to in southern Indiana where this is not a problem. My speed on flats/rollers seems to be between 12-15 at this point - but I have been focusing more on skills rather than speed. Now I have a bike that doesn't hurt me to ride it, that will help. My touring bike isn't a speed demon, but the LHT isn't shabby either.

I just learned how to ride last year, and am very pleased to report that riding 28-29 miles does not leave me overly tired. Really not tired at all, so my next target "long ride" will be 35 after I do a 30. After that I hope to go up in 6-7 mile increments - we will see what my body happens to think about that

Right now I have one "long ride" a week, and as many shorter rides as I can fit in. Last week I managed to ride close to 100 miles over 4 rides which is something of a personal record of mine

As I progress I would LIKE to have two long rides a week, time and body permitting, and a couple of shorter rides. 4 days a week has been what I am targeting for, though am trying to listen to my body, and sometimes my schedule or the weather (like today) just doesn't allow it.

IndySteel - thanks for the gentle reminder that our bodies do not often know how to improve in a linear fashion - I will certainly keep your experience in mind. It really is helpful to me to read/hear of the personal experience of others for sure.

[DarcyInOregon]

The cut-off for a 200K brevet is 13:30. That's a 9.1 mph average..

Are you including the time for stops? Some cyclists don't need much time to use the toilet facilities and to eat and drink, and others need a lot of time. It is reasonable to assume 3 hours of total stop time over a 125 mile distance for a fairly new cyclist. It means she has 10.5 hours to complete 125 miles.

I live in similar terrain, but IMO the short steep stuff is at least as hard as long and shallow. And anyway, the brevet she's planning will be in terrain very similar to where she lives. There's no reason for her to train in very different terrain...

Dang, you get long and shallow? I do a 4-mile climb to my house and the lowest grade is 5% and the steepest is 18%. Nasty. I've never been on a ride that has a climb that is long and shallow, or if it was, I just thought of it as being a 3% grade, not a climb.

I thought Catrin had said she wanted to do a brevet in another state and it would be hilly. I live in a state that is mountains and valleys, so when I think hilly I think of long steep grades, not short steep rollers. You are correct, it is a different training technique if the hills are 1/2 mile or less.

[Catrin]

I thought Catrin had said she wanted to do a brevet in another state and it would be hilly. I live in a state that is mountains and valleys, so when I think hilly I think of long steep grades, not short steep rollers. You are correct, it is a different training technique if the hills are 1/2 mile or less.

Well, hilly in that it is in southern Ohio and more hilly than Central Indiana - that is different from being in the mountains What would be a good training technique if the hills are short and steep?

I am about an hours drive from southern Indiana - and they DO have hills there - they may not be long, but they can get very steep and there are a lot of them!

[DarcyInOregon]

Well, hilly in that it is in southern Ohio and more hilly than Central Indiana - that is different from being in the mountains What would be a good training technique if the hills are short and steep?

I am about an hours drive from southern Indiana - and they DO have hills there - they may not be long, but they can get very steep and there are a lot of them!

Catrin, short and steep is a lot of fun to ride. You get a lot of speed going down one side, pedal if you have to, then accelerate at the bottom of the next hill and don't start shifting down until the cadence starts to fall. If you get enough speed, even if the grade is 15-18%, you can reach the top and still not be in your lowest gears, and your speed might not drop below 12 mph. It takes practice and a positive attitude about how fun it all is. If the hill is about a half mile high, you can still make it half way or more to the top before the speed really starts to drop.

I consider myself a slow cyclist, not really slow, but I have enough ascents and headwinds in any given ride that I doubt if my speed will ever be significant, plus I can't get my average cadence to go over 75, and thus my average speed falls anywhere between 13.0 and 16.5, typically between 14 and 15.5. Last month I was out on a long solo ride, on roads I know well. I turned left off of one rural road onto another rural road and about 1/4 mile down was the glimmer of a male cyclist. Since I knew the road I knew there was a nice descent, followed by a sharp hill with a steep curve, and I thought, hmm, I bet I can take the cyclist on the hill. I gained on the male cyclist by picking up the cadence, then gearing up when I reached the descent, pedaled like mad, and I got the male cyclist about a 1/3 of the way up the hill, passed him at about 16 mph. His head turned to look at me when I passed him, he saw I was a female, and he shouted, "hey you are a girl!" and then he shouted after me "I am slow because I forgot to pump up my tires." Now that was fun. You see what he did wrong, he didn't accelerate down the descent, and when he got to the bottom of the descent he saw a steep hill in front of him and he downshifted at the bottom into his lowest gear, thereby dropping his speed immediately, and when I passed him he was going maybe 4 mph. When I crested the top I was still going 11-12 mph.

Short hills are fun. Long continuous climbs are painful. And of course it is not possible to accelerate at the bottom of every short hill but with increased cycling fitness those type of short steep hills are easy to do, just slower and in a lower gear.

One of the worse sounds to hear is a "swoosh swoosh" coming up fast behind you on a hill. That happens to me. I will be on a climb and being pleased with myself, thinking wow this is the fastest I've gone up this hill, and there is that swoosh swoosh sound and it is a male cyclist coming up fast behind me and then passing me on the hill going over 20 mph, and the male cyclist is invariably a senior with gray or white hair and probably over the age of 65. But then I am not skinny and I don't ride a titanium racing bike either.

Other people can probably contribute to the hill climbing techniques. Others might have an even faster and easier way to climb the short hills than I do.

[Crankin]

I think all of these "rules" and figures that are being quoted to Catrin might be enough to scare anyone off, even if they were just thinking about doing longer distances.
Frankly, I find the key to surviving long distances with lots of hills is to climb slowly, on purpose. I don't care if I am going 4.5 mph, because I know I will get up the hills, and I also will finish my ride not feeling like I am ready to die.
I know brevets have a time limit, but most centuries don't. But, often, I get to the end of a long, hilly ride before the people who were going up the hill faster than me, because somewhere along the way, they ran out of gas.
Catrin, I think you can do it. Increase your mileage slowly, as you plan to, experiment with your nutrition/hydration, and ride hills. And don't underestimate how much of this is mental. I never ride really long climbs at home, but I was was able to do many 5-10 mile climbs, with serious gradients on my tour, because 1) I ride lots of short steep climbs at home and 2) I knew I would have to do this, I made up my mind I would and I wouldn't even consider getting in the support van.

[OakLeaf]

If you get enough speed, even if the grade is 15-18%, you can reach the top and still not be in your lowest gears, and your speed might not drop below 12 mph.... If the hill is about a half mile high, you can still make it half way or more to the top before the speed really starts to drop.

Me, not so much. Don't want to be discouraging, but if anything I'm over-bold on the descents. As a motorcyclist, I'm not in the least intimidated by 45 mph on the bici - that's about as fast as I get around here, given the size of myself and my local hills.

I'm slow now, but as an ex-racer, I consider myself very good at maintaining cadence and nailing shift points. But if I'm saving energy for a long ride and not hammering up the hills, I'll be in my 30x27 well before I get to the top of anything 15% or more. Plus, the steepest ones are usually the tallest, too, so the laws of physics dictate you'll only get so much benefit from the hills that lead up to it.

Catrin, it's just a matter of practice. IMO it's really too early to for you be stressing about a lot of this stuff. Get comfortable maintaining cadence and shifting smoothly in the flats and smaller hills. Get used to accelerating from a stop. The hills will come when you're ready for them.

[Catrin]

....Catrin, it's just a matter of practice. IMO it's really too early to for you be stressing about a lot of this stuff. Get comfortable maintaining cadence and shifting smoothly in the flats and smaller hills. Get used to accelerating from a stop. The hills will come when you're ready for them.

I've been focusing lately on shifting in hills - and it seems to me that the best way to learn hills is to ride in hills and focusing on figuring out shifting points Am excited about all of this - any excuse to ride further/longer is a good thing I've also found club rides in the counties to the south of us that DO have hills, and someone sent me a map with cue sheet from another club ride that shouldn't be beyond me.

So I will focus on increasing my mileage a little each week, riding as often as I can. I want to do intervals at least once a week, and focus on shifting/pedaling smoothly. I use BMX pedals so I do have to mash a little more than someone who is clipped in, but it is working for me.

I don't get scared away by numbers, indeed they are helpful to me because they give me an idea of what I need to shoot for. I do tend to over-think things, as my trainer looses no opportunity to remind me

Heading out of town for the day, but hoping everyone has a great day and thanks for the advise and discussion!

[indysteel]

Me, not so much. Don't want to be discouraging, but if anything I'm over-bold on the descents. As a motorcyclist, I'm not in the least intimidated by 45 mph on the bici - that's about as fast as I get around here, given the size of myself and my local hills.

I'm slow now, but as an ex-racer, I consider myself very good at maintaining cadence and nailing shift points. But if I'm saving energy for a long ride and not hammering up the hills, I'll be in my 30x27 well before I get to the top of anything 15% or more. Plus, the steepest ones are usually the tallest, too, so the laws of physics dictate you'll only get so much benefit from the hills that lead up to it.

Catrin, it's just a matter of practice. IMO it's really too early to for you be stressing about a lot of this stuff. Get comfortable maintaining cadence and shifting smoothly in the flats and smaller hills. Get used to accelerating from a stop. The hills will come when you're ready for them.

Given that I've ridden in the areas that Catrin is speaking of in Southern Indiana, I'd add that, while there are exceptions, few of the hills are rollers such that you can use momentum to get up them.

Offline, I've given Catrin some a suggestion for a good area to ride that offers some good, but not horrible, climbing. That'll be a good place for her to start IMO. There are also a handful of organized rides offered throughout the year in that neck of the woods. I think it's wise to take advantage of them if you can. I don't particularly like riding in certain parts of the alone for one. For another, it's helpful to have food and water provided for you, as there are few places to stop along the way.

Catrin, check CIBA's calendar, along with the Bloomington Bicycle Club and the Bloomington Parks Department. The Parks Department offers a century (and shorter routes) called the Hoosier Hills Challenge the first weekend in October (I think) that hits many of the challenging climbs in Brown County. Depending on which brevet you set your sights on, that ride might be the best yardstick to use to see if you're ready. Beyond that, CIBA offers 5 or 6 weekend rides plus some GT rides that are hilly, some being harder and hillier than others. They're CIBA's most popular rides; I recommend them highly.

[maillotpois]

I liked what Indy noted - that you might work to get yourself up to a certain mileage level and spend some time getting used to that mileage before ramping up again.

I coach for the Death Ride (130 miles and 15,000 feet of elevation gain) for TNT, and the program I have designed builds up to about a 70 mile ride within 3 months and then spends some time at the 70 mile level before ramping up again to a series of 110 mile 10,000+ foot rides.

We build fairly gradually but only have from February to July to get this in. It works well. I note most of our riders have done a century before doing our program, but many have not and they do well also.

So you might want to build up to the 60 - 70 mile level and spend 3 weeks to a month riding at that distance just to get used to it before you increase again.

[Catrin]

Given that I've ridden in the areas that Catrin is speaking of in Southern Indiana, I'd add that, while there are exceptions, few of the hills are rollers such that you can use momentum to get up them.....

Catrin, check CIBA's calendar, along with the Bloomington Bicycle Club and the Bloomington Parks Department. The Parks Department offers a century (and shorter routes) called the Hoosier Hills Challenge the first weekend in October (I think) that hits many of the challenging climbs in Brown County. Depending on which brevet you set your sights on, that ride might be the best yardstick to use to see if you're ready. Beyond that, CIBA offers 5 or 6 weekend rides plus some GT rides that are hilly, some being harder and hillier than others. They're CIBA's most popular rides; I recommend them highly.

I hadn't thought on checking in Bloomington, that is a good idea! I have already picked some of the CIBA southern rides to check out. I will also check out the Hoosier Hills Challenge, that might be a really good idea - especially if I decide to do the November brevet in Nashville, TN rather than October in Ohio. Either way it would likely be a good idea.

I liked what Indy noted - that you might work to get yourself up to a certain mileage level and spend some time getting used to that mileage before ramping up again........So you might want to build up to the 60 - 70 mile level and spend 3 weeks to a month riding at that distance just to get used to it before you increase again.

I have 4 months total to prepare in, but it makes sense to do this in some way. I might not be able to spend an entire month - ideally I would like to be reach a century by October 1 and then spend the next almost 3 weeks just staying with it/getting comfy with it for the next 16 days. I think this is where it will be important to listen to my body, carefully.

I am also thinking this might be a good time to finally get that book on nutrition for cyclists that I have seen recommended elsewhere on this forum. It is probably time to start eating to sustain endurance rather than to target weight loss - currently I am only on a 1500 calorie "budget" and it is probably about time to change that. I have been known to go as high as 1700 calories on heavy days - but the definition of a "heavy day" is likely about to change

[chicagogal]

I think this sounds like a fantastic goal!!! It is going to be HARD, but it should also be FUN!!

My guess is that nutrition is going to one of your bigger challenges, so the book you mentioned might be a good idea, although I haven't read it. However, keep in mind that every body is different and therefore, nutrition needs differ very much from person to person. Also, as you train more and more, you will probably find your own nutrition needs changing a lot. So, you will have to read your body very carefully to determine what it needs.

Carry more food with you than you think you will need, and eat BEFORE you get hungry. Also try different sports drinks. You will probably need a good amount of electrolytes, but everyone has a different tolerance for sports drinks, so find one that doesn't upset your stomach. Another thing you could try are cliff shot blocks. I always bring them on all my rides and can do fine with plain water and shot blocks for electrolytes.

Over time, you will build a pretty strong and efficient aerobic engine. That efficiency will manifest in your ability to utilize fuel (carbs) well. However, before you get to that point (and even after) you need to be hyper-aware of how you are feeling so you don't bonk. It is NOT FUN to run out of gas miles from home!

Good luck with your training and keep us posted! I am going to live vicariously through you because I am bailing on my friends' double century next week due to having been more focused on intensity this season and so haven't had time to train for that distance :-(

[Catrin]

I think this sounds like a fantastic goal!!! It is going to be HARD, but it should also be FUN!!............ Also, as you train more and more, you will probably find your own nutrition needs changing a lot. So, you will have to read your body very carefully to determine what it needs.....
Over time, you will build a pretty strong and efficient aerobic engine. That efficiency will manifest in your ability to utilize fuel (carbs) well. However, before you get to that point (and even after) you need to be hyper-aware of how you are feeling so you don't bonk. It is NOT FUN to run out of gas miles from home!

Good luck with your training and keep us posted! I am going to live vicariously through you because I am bailing on my friends' double century next week due to having been more focused on intensity this season and so haven't had time to train for that distance :-(

My trainer put it best I think - this is my adventure, and the training will be as much of an adventure as the actual brevet itself. In my younger years I thrived on adventures of assorted kinds but have not had a good one in years. I seem to be aging backwards in more than one way through cycling

[Catrin]

I liked what Indy noted - that you might work to get yourself up to a certain mileage level and spend some time getting used to that mileage before ramping up again.

I coach for the Death Ride (130 miles and 15,000 feet of elevation gain) for TNT, and the program I have designed builds up to about a 70 mile ride within 3 months and then spends some time at the 70 mile level before ramping up again to a series of 110 mile 10,000+ foot rides.

We build fairly gradually but only have from February to July to get this in. It works well. I note most of our riders have done a century before doing our program, but many have not and they do well also.

So you might want to build up to the 60 - 70 mile level and spend 3 weeks to a month riding at that distance just to get used to it before you increase again.

I just looked up the Death Ride - WOW!!! That looks like a lot of fun...torture...errrr I meant fun

I am working out a schedule, as much as I can, of how I would like to increase my miles between now and October 1 and while I don't think I can spend an entire month at the 70 mile level, I am trying to schedule as long as I can and still give me time to ramp up the remaining 50 miles. I do not want to do heavy miles that last week or so in order to have fresh legs - but of course it all depends on how my body takes to the increasing mileage and the heat. So far so good, but I am just at the beginning.

Now I just need to get my saddle issues worked out...