Going out with the gals

[Crankin]

You know, Bike Chick, your example from the locker room makes me think that I must be confusing to people (I often have that same reaction to what you experienced). I love fashion, I like having my nails done, and I like to get dressed up, too. But... I love getting sweaty and dirty, never minded peeing in the woods, and when I was a kid, I spent a large amount of time leading the boys in my neighborhood around, playing soldier . Even though I like some traditionally feminine things, I've never been a girly-girl.
I've often made the comment that when I am in large groups, in social settings, I usually end up talking to the men, unless there are women who are into riding, etc., there. I think some of this is because, even at this stage of my life, the women are *still* bragging about what their kids are doing. Last summer, I was getting a pedicure at one of those small little shops you see in strip malls, no fancy spa. In walks this woman who has kids the same age as mine. They weren't friends, really, but went to religious school and high school together. I tried to hide behind a magazine, but she came up to me and started in, asking if I knew that "*her son* was married, her daughter was getting her Master's at Julliard?" I squelched the strong urge to reply that my son was off interrogating Iraquis and the other one actually was happy with his B.A. and wasn't in grad school.

[Bike Chick]

I understand Crank. Some people don't have their own identitfy and use their children's (or grandchildren's) accomplishments for their own validation. Sad for them and hard to listen to! Gag!

I, like you and I'm sure many others on here, am not a girlie girl either. I like dressing up, getting my hair and nails done, being feminine but I enjoy cycling, running and swimming too and don't mind getting sweaty, messing up my hair with a bike helmet, going without makeup or peeing in the woods. I feel bad categorizing women but what I would consider a girlie girl is what I picture when I read Shootingstar's post. That's fine for them but I have a hard time relating to them. I didn't fit into that group in high school, don't now and never will.

I ride with the guys and last summer 2 coworkers and I would meet at the office early and get a 25 mile ride in before work 2-3 times a week. One of them told me he liked riding with me because it wasn't like riding with a chick and that I was one of the guys. I asked him what that meant and he said he couldn't put it into words but it was a compliment. FWIW, his wife is a girlie girl.

Oh and for the record, I am a Sex and The City fan. I loved the show, watch all the reruns and have seen the movie. They are strong characters and I enjoy the humor.

[Tuckervill]

I tried to hide behind a magazine, but she came up to me and started in, asking if I knew that "*her son* was married, her daughter was getting her Master's at Julliard?" I squelched the strong urge to reply that my son was off interrogating Iraquis and the other one actually was happy with his B.A. and wasn't in grad school.

I don't understand why you would take it as a competitive challenge that she tells you about the success of her children. She's just catching up with you, on the most general topics she can think of. Rather than show that you are satisfied and content with what your children are doing, you chose not to share anything. That makes me think that you think your children can't compare to hers, and that's just buying into the BS that you hate so much.

If you really don't want to participate in the Successful Child Olympics, just express your happiness for her happiness, and let it go. It's not a challenge or a threat to me when other people are successful. If they feel they've won something over on me because my kids don't "measure up" in their eyes, that's their problem, not mine.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

Back on topic, I don't have a large group of women friends, but I'd love to have one. My closest friends live in other cities, so when we get together it's usually with the whole family, or if it's just me doing the traveling, sitting in the kitchen having tea. I don't have anyone my age to ride with or hang out with nearby. Not that age is so important, but it does follow with a "stage of life" and it helps to be friends with someone you can relate to in similar circumstances. Helps to coordinate schedules, too. I just haven't found the right group of friends nearby, yet.

I have trouble with large groups of middle-aged women in skanky shirts dressed to the nines and being loud and getting drunk in public, too. It just seems so out of control, and at that age there is a whole lot more to lose when things get like they did when I was younger. I'll bet they wouldn't act that way in front of their kids or their mama, so why would they do it in public?

Karen

[snowroo]

Karen

Thanks for that. I'm sometimes like a bull in a china shop in conversations. I get excited and happy over little things really quickly. So I love to share things that make me happy. Which might include my kids or my dh's successes. Or my own. When I share, I want to share the "happy". I'm not comparing or making any comment on the other person. Read it at face value.

I find it hard to be sensitive that another person is not in a place to be able to join in my happy. Means I have to squish my happy. This makes me anxious that I for some reason have different social rules and for some reason it's not ok to be rejoicing in lifes little joys. I just want to share the feeling.

For this reason, I tend to stick with a few close friends. I don't "get" the social rules of larger groups of women.

Very gently, crankin, your interogation comment might be difficult to hear from our community members who are connected to the military.

[shootingstar]

I feel bad categorizing women but what I would consider a girlie girl is what I picture when I read Shootingstar's post. That's fine for them but I have a hard time relating to them. I didn't fit into that group in high school, don't now and never will.

My original post was simply similar in sentiment..I appreciate fashion, etc. but have a hard time relating to a great deal of shallow talk. Maybe it is the type of conversation amongst people who see other often. I dunno.

But when I see close friends which isn't that often, time is valuable and precious.

Guess some people have different definitions of fun..I just go for a bike ride. That's my "silliness".

I did occasionally watch Sex in the City episodes. I saw the last movie on tv. I watched it partially out of curiosity for the FASHION and archetypical silliness. But would I participate in some vampy girls' night out, dressed to the nines? I'm not sure what I would wear... would I have to wear a black strapless dress to overcome my conservative image??? (I do have such a dress by the way..worn for attending a wedding with shawl... $50.00 brand-new. Yup, I'm a cheap chickie. ) One thing for certain, such a gathering would be too much effort for me.

Be the anti-fashion: a skort for us all.

[PamNY]

First, disclaimer: I truly am not anti-female. I'm just stating what happens when I socialize with groups of women.

I don't relate much to the fashion and dressing-up part of this discussion because the oppression that I feel can happen with any group of women. It wouldn't matter what the group norms were -- some woman would be trying to force them on me, and that would be the problem. It could be Manolo Blahnik or it could be Pearl Izumi -- the effect on me would be the same.

With many women, I feel like the rule is "look like me and be like me to validate me" and even more annoying, they seem to assume that I need the same validation.

I could be perfectly happy getting dressed up and going out with a group of women if they paid attention to me as a distinct individual and responded well if I did the same for them. Some of my closest friends have been girly girls -- but they know that I'm not, and that is fine.

There's also the "you're not fat" conversation. When my SO wanted to lose weight, I noticed that in discussions with other males this was simply a problem to be solved. If I said the same thing to a group of women, there would be a chorus of voices seeking to reassure me that I'm okay -- "you're not fat!" The same logic applies to other issues -- if I want to paint a wall or retile a bathroom, there's a rush to assure me that "it looks okay! don't worry about it!" I hate this kind of thing: if you are my friend, you know what's important to me and you support my efforts to get/do what I want.

[badger]

I had a pretty transient childhood where I went to 8 different schools by the time I graduated, so I am astounded when people still hang out with their friends from elementary school.

I've either moved away, or they have or circumstances changed in their lives (married, busy with kids), that I've had a huge hemorrhage of female friends over the past decade that I'm pretty much down to no good female friends that I hang out with on any regular basis. I do have a few very dear female friends but they're scattered around the world.

I also find it extremely difficult to make new friends with females my age (late 30's). They all seem to be content with their circle of friends that they don't seem to want to expand. Or just plain simply everyone's too busy living their lives that we don't "hang out" anymore.

[Catrin]

I had a pretty transient childhood where I went to 8 different schools by the time I graduated, so I am astounded when people still hang out with their friends from elementary school.

I've either moved away, or they have or circumstances changed in their lives (married, busy with kids), that I've had a huge hemorrhage of female friends over the past decade that I'm pretty much down to no good female friends that I hang out with on any regular basis. I do have a few very dear female friends but they're scattered around the world.

I also find it extremely difficult to make new friends with females my age (late 30's). They all seem to be content with their circle of friends that they don't seem to want to expand. Or just plain simply everyone's too busy living their lives that we don't "hang out" anymore.

Yep - I am the only "single" woman that I know at church, work, or elsewhere. Everyone is busy with their lives, and I've gotten used to doing things solo. I am starting to run across more people who like riding though, so am hoping to at least find some riding buddies.

It is also true that in larger gatherings I find myself talking with the men more than the women because the women seem to focus in their children, etc. Of course they are relating to those things they have in common - and I've no children and to make it worse, I have one of those techie jobs that makes peoples eyes glaze over when I try to explain what I do for a living I do have good friends, but they are scattered around the country.

We were quite mobile when I was growing up as well, and it is amazing to me that there are those who are still in contact/hang out with people they grew up with. It sounds very nice, amazing, but nice to be able to hang out with people who have known you through all of the changes of life.

[Crankin]

Tuckervill, I am not buying into that "your kid is better than mine," thing, although I know exactly what you speak of. As far as catching up, this is a woman I have no relationship with, except our kids went to Hebrew School together. My kids are fine, in my book... in fact they are pretty emotionally sane and as we always say "no one's in jail." I guess I would have liked it more if she had asked me what I was doing! You know, went back to school, switching careers, etc. She didn't even ask me if I was still teaching, although I did ask her about her job.
I live in an extremely competitive area in terms of academics and this stuff is commonplace. Mostly I shrug it off, but it gets old. It's more the "living through the kids" thing, which irks me. I didn't do it when my kids were little and I certainly don't do it now. I love them and we have a great relationship, but I don't get my identity from them.

[shootingstar]

I had a pretty transient childhood where I went to 8 different schools by the time I graduated, so I am astounded when people still hang out with their friends from elementary school.

I've either moved away, or they have or circumstances changed in their lives (married, busy with kids), that I've had a huge hemorrhage of female friends over the past decade that I'm pretty much down to no good female friends that I hang out with on any regular basis. I do have a few very dear female friends but they're scattered around the world.

I also find it extremely difficult to make new friends with females my age (late 30's). They all seem to be content with their circle of friends that they don't seem to want to expand. Or just plain simply everyone's too busy living their lives that we don't "hang out" anymore.

I only have 1 friend from teenagehood amongst the closest other friends who have known me since my 20's.

Perhaps the older one gets, the more complex personal life experiences become that it's harder to articulate certain parts of core life experience/major life changes to a stranger who may not share the same experience at all. So establishing connection with other person at mid-life can take time or remains warm, but somewhat limited.

Yes, sure it's easier with women cyclists regardless of their cycling skill.

[PamNY]

Perhaps the older one gets, the more complex personal life experiences become that it's harder to articulate certain parts of core life experience/major life changes to a stranger who may not share the same experience at all. So establishing connection with other person at mid-life can take time or remains warm, but somewhat limited.

I think that is true. Making new friends at an older age is just different. There is so much to explain/understand. I think that is one reason friends with a shared special interest are appealing to me more now.