Need help from Brooks owners, please.

[Thorn]

When you put the Brooks on your bike, how did you determine your position was the same? I ask only because Brooks saddles tend to be taller and the rails tend to be shorter. So, you want to have measured from you to the bike (e.g., bend in the knee and knee to pedal spindle distance), not saddle to bike. I had to go from a straight seat post to an offset seat post when I put in the Brooks to get the same position on the bike.

As for the bits, did you try the "cutout test" that KnottedYet wrote? If so, did you pass or fail? If your saddle position and overall fit is not right, that alone could cause the pressure, so you want to resolve that before anything else. Be careful tipping the saddle down as you can end up with too much pressure on the hands and arms (hm....as you've stated).

You don't want to hear this, but I cut a hole in my Brooks (well, actually, Selle Anatomica cut the hole in for me). Without it, I just couldn't get comfortable. If your sit bones are supported on the B-17 you might just want to try out a Selle Anatomica to see if it resolves the pressure in the sensitive areas.

But, first, can you get someone to help you with that fit?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The "S" models of Brooks saddles are shorter than the non-S models. Their rails are about 1 1/2" shorter as well. When i had a B17S I found I could not shove the saddle far back enough to feel balanced on my bike. It caused me to feel like I was falling forward with my weight, and this put too much weight on my hands and arms. More weight on your hands could mean shoulder discomfort. For me, it wasn't so much that I couldn't reach the handlebars, it was that there was too much weight coming down on my hands to hold myself up. I felt like I was holding myself up with my hands.

All this sounds familiar to me, and when I exchanged my B17S for a 'men's' B17, I was SO relieved to be able to slide the saddle back another 1.5". This made all the diff in the world to my sense of weight balance. It shifted my center of gravity back and my weight off my hands.

The main diff I found between the B17S and the B17 was not so much the shape of the saddle, or even its shortness/longness....it was the length of the rails and how that effected my being able to position the saddle further back.

I know it seems counter-intuitive to put your saddle further back if you think you are having a reach problem, but...
get on the floor, evenly on on your hands and knees. See how much weight is on your hands? Now, shift your butt backwards while keeping all hands and knees in the same spot- see how there is now less weight going onto your hands? Yet you have not brought your hands in closer to you. This is what happens when you shift your saddle a bit further back. It changes your center of gravity.

In addition to getting weight off your hands, shifting your weight back will also put less weight on your frontal 'girl parts'. Having more weight on your sitbones will help with soft tissue pain. In the meantime, be sure you are using a lube on your tender parts, or at least some creamy hypo-allergenic hand lotion- this does help on long rides, I find.
Hope this provides some further possibilities to think about.

[OakLeaf]

Lisa, that's a great illustration!

Another thing to remember is that stems come not only in different lengths, but in different rises. A longer stem with a steeper rise can shorten the distance to the handlebars and give you a more upright riding position.

[SLash]

Thorn: I'll have to look up KnottedYet's "cutout test" and see, I've never heard of it but I'll do a search. You're right, I can't bear to think about cutting a hole in my Brooks! I've tried out a variety of saddles over the years but never a Selle Anatomica. I'm committed to Brooks for this bike (aethetics over function/comfort, hopefully just for the time being though ). I may look at that saddle for my Scott though.

Because my sitbones seem supported I'm hopeful the Brooks will work once I get the fit dialed in. I bought the bike from a lbs and will be taking the bike in for a check next week so they can tweak my fit.

Lisa: I went back and forth between the s and regular. Initially I planned to order the "regular" because in my research here I read about the issue of not being able to slide back enough because of the shorter rails. After a ridiculous amount of weighing the pros and cons, I went with the S because of the width difference between the two and felt like my sitbones needed that little extra that the S gives). I think in terms of that alone the S is a better fit for me than the regular. However, if this one doesn't work for me my plan is to return and try the B17 regular.

You've both brought up a lot of good points and I plan to ride today and experiment. I really think the saddle is too high and that will be the first thing I change. My husband rode behind me and thought I seemed to be reaching more in the bottom of my pedal stroke. It felt like it to me so I'll start there.

I've gotta go to the dentist now but, thanks very much for the feedback - I really appreciate it!!

Susan

[Desert Tortoise]

Thanks ladies! I recently purchased a Brooks saddle and have been having many of these same problems. Could not believe how much weight was on my hands yet my reach felt further away. I will try to move the saddle back a little more and see if that helps.

Thanks again!

[SLash]

Just got back from riding around the neighborhood with regular shorts, no bike shorts/no padding.

I decided to ride once more before making any changes to my fit so I could mentally take note of exactly what was happening regarding pain, etc. I have found over the years that I am better off making changes to my fit very slowly and very conservatively.

First off, I was much more comfortable on my Brooks without my padded bike shorts. Confusing to me, I would have expected the opposite.

I'm wondering if the reason is when I wear padded shorts, the padding gets squished against the saddle, which further squishes my bits. My other saddles have cut outs so this wouldn't be an issue, or at least not as much of one. What do you think?

I did Knotted's cut-out test and passed, nothing was squished.

Another thing I noticed, when I am riding on my saddle with hands placed just on the flat part of the bar (either side of the stem) my saddle feels fine. No pain anywhere.

It is when I rotate my pelvis down/forward and get on hoods or drops (which is how I ride the majority of the time) that the pain occurs. The pain occurs not on the sit bones but rather the pubic bone.

Thoughts??

Much Thanks!

Susan

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

First off, I was much more comfortable on my Brooks without my padded bike shorts. Confusing to me, I would have expected the opposite.

Too much padding in your shorts can indeed cause more pressure and will push back against your sensitive parts. Just as a too-padded foamy saddle can be more painful against your soft tissues than a hard unpadded saddle. Sometimes less is more.

It is when I rotate my pelvis down/forward and get on hoods or drops (which is how I ride the majority of the time) that the pain occurs. The pain occurs not on the sit bones but rather the pubic bone.
Thoughts??

When you get onto the hoods or drops, be aware of tilting your pelvis. Try tilting it the other way instead, down/forward- pull in your stomach and tip your pubic bone area up and forward instead of down and back. This will strengthen your core, prevent the sagging back posture (which again puts more weight and strain on your hands and shoulders) and prevents you from riding right on the hard nose of your saddle with your pubic bone. After a while when you are more aware of your body positions this tummy tuck pelvic tilt will become more automatic.

When you tilt your pelvis down/forward, you tend to let your back and tummy sag down (like a swayback horse) and that makes your hands have to hold your weight up all by themselves (ow!), plus it will hurt your pubic area to ride on it. It's sort of a lazy posture, easy to do, but will work against you. I had to stop myself from doing it.
It helps to be more aware of your whole body floating over the bike, and try to distribute your weight evenly between sitbones, feet, and hands. think of your whole body as floating/walking/swimming over your bike, not just your body sitting on a chair while pedaling. This thoughts helped me become much more aware of my own body on my bike.

[SLash]

Thanks Lisa, but I'm a little confused by some of the information. I've always been told to ride with flat back, pelvis rotated forward, imagining trying to touch the top tube with belly button, etc. So I have always tried to ride with a flat back and achieving that by rotating my pelvis forward. When I said forward/down I was referring to rolling my pelvis forward and down getting in the drops. I checked with my husband who I ride with primarily and a friend and both say although my back isn't perfectly flat (slightly rounded in the upper part) the lower part of my back is flat, not swaybacked.

The other thing is this is an issue with the Brooks and Jamis not my Scott and Zerox.

With that said, I know I could engage my core more (always ) and as you suggest try to pull up at the pubic area. I think part of the issue is the saddle is a little high which would exacerbates the pubic pressure issue as I have to reach at the bottom of my stroke (my husband noticed this when we were out riding the other day).

It helps to be more aware of your whole body floating over the bike, and try to distribute your weight evenly between sitbones, feet, and hands. think of your whole body as floating/walking/swimming over your bike, not just your body sitting on a chair while pedaling.

This describes how I feel when I ride my Scott CR1 Pro perfectly (Terry zerox saddle), feeling a part of the bike, not like I'm sitting on and riding the bike. I don't feel that way on my Jamis which is partly because of the different geometry but I believe, is also a fit issue. Getting the Brooks has changed my fit and the changes need to be addressed. Sigh. I had the perfect fit on the bike prior to changing out the saddle. I felt comfortable while in the drops or hoods with the stock saddle, but my sit bones weren't happy. Funny, but I have the opposite problem with Brooks, sitbones happy, rest isn't/stock saddle everything happy but the sitbones. There is no perfect saddle.

I appreciate your feedback and know it's important to not collapse on the bike but to support myself with my core too, and will keep your pointers in mind when I ride next.

Susan

[sundial]

Because my sitbones seem supported I'm hopeful the Brooks will work once I get the fit dialed in....Initially I planned to order the "regular" because in my research here I read about the issue of not being able to slide back enough because of the shorter rails.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of sitting whilst being fully supported by your sitbones rather than the pelvic floor. You'll be paying a price if you ride unsupported. What's nice about the S model is that it forces you to sit back further on the saddle rather than ride on the nose.

Since the rails run short on Brooks saddles, one suggestion I can make is to consider a setback seatpost with a looong setback. But first I would suggest you lower the seatpost 2-3 mm and try that. Then as you break in the saddle you can raise your seatpost little by little. (It might be handy to switch to a quick release collar during the break in of your saddle so you can adjust it quickly on the fly. Once you find the right heighth, mark it on the seatpost. )

And as for breaking it in faster, I found putting it on the bike that I sit the most upright will break it in faster. My Brooks get broken in on my mountain bike and then I switch it to the road bike.

[sundial]

Oh, one more thing. Specialized makes an adjustable stem.

[SLash]

Sundial,

Excellent information and suggestions, thank you.

I rode today and for the first 10 miles I just focused on what worked, what didn't, where the pain was, where it wasn't, and on and on. I paid attention to my hands and whether I felt I was disproportianately supporting myself on my hands. I did. I also noticed I wanted to slide back.

So I stopped, adjusted the nose up ever so slightly (while I was cursing the *^%# wind!) and then slid the saddle back about 1/4 inch. I felt better but not good enough.

I just don't feel "one with the bike" like I feel when I ride my Scott and like I felt before I put the Brooks on this bike (Jamis). I am constantly aware of how I am feeling and it's not good! I feel like I used too when I was just getting my base miles - like it is all such an effort. I haven't felt that way in a long time. I don't blame the Brooks, I think the saddle switch simply screwed up the fit that I got when I bought the bike so the next thing I plan to do is go this week and get re-fit.

Other possible reasons: 1. I'm riding a much heavier, slower geomety bike (Jamis Aurora Elite vs all carbon Scott CR1 pro) 2. The shifting isn't nearly as good or smooth (poorly adjusted - which will get fixed this week -Shimano Tiagra vs Campy Centaur) so shifting is a struggle and hard to maintain a smooth and consistent pedal stroke.

I think these things are part of the problem. Thoughts?

Today I wondered if I need a longer saddle but the dilemma is I need the extra width of the S so couldn't go with a B17. I ride in the drops or the hoods mostly so don't think the B68 would be a good match.

With what you said though maybe it's good I don't have the longer saddle so it forces me to sit at the back of it where I am more supported by sit bones.

I'm 5'5" but more of my height is in my torso than my legs (inseam of just under 30") don't know if that is impacting any of this.

It is all a mystery at this point. I expected the pain of the Brooks to be in the sit bones and it isn't. One other thing, I am beginning to believe that some of my discomfort is because of the padding in the front part of my bike shorts (Shebeest Triple S). I need the padding at the sit bones area but not in the crotch.

Is anyone aware of bike shorts that have good padding, but focus it at the sit bones area rather than the front/soft tissue part of the short?

Thanks to all of you for your help!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

What's nice about the S model is that it forces you to sit back further on the saddle rather than ride on the nose.
Since the rails run short on Brooks saddles, one suggestion I can make is to consider a setback seatpost with a looong setback.

I know we all have different experiences, and I must relate my own experience, having ridden thousands of miles on both "S" model and non-S.
The rails on the S model are about 1.5" shorter than the rails on the non S. Thus, if you position your saddle all the way back on its rails, the back edge of the S model was always more forward on the bike than my non-S model. For me, this put my center of gravity way too far forward and i had too much weight falling forward onto my hands. Just my own experience of course.

Just as an interesting visual comparison of the "S" vs. the non-S Brooks saddles...

Here is my Rivendell Rambouillet with its original B17S saddle when I first got the bike:


And here is the same bike a couple years later with a B68 (not an "S" model), same seatpost:


Note also how I initially had my saddle set pretty low when i first got my bike. It seemed so scary tall! lol!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

For what it's worth-
I went from the B17S to the B17 so i could move the saddle back further. I had been feeling sort of like I was riding a unicycle. It helped a lot, but i eventually found that my sitbones were a bit too wide for the B17 anyway, they were too close to the side frame edges of the saddle, so I then switched to the B68 on both my bikes, which was as wide as they come. (I have very wide hips and sitbones to match) It's been heavenly ever since. i ride on the hoods and drops quite a bit and never have any problem with my B68 because of that. I am most comfortable when the saddle nose is tipped ever so slightly up from level.

I personally found the B17S forced my whole body to be too far forward. The non-S with the longer rails, shoved all the way back, allowed me to get an inch and a half further back and I felt so much better balanced and off my hands.
Incidentally, when we measured me carefully for my second bike, a custom Luna, we found my right thigh bone was a 1/2" longer than my left thigh bone.

[SLash]

Lisa,

I went from the B17S to the B17 so i could move the saddle back further. I had been feeling sort of like I was riding a unicycle. It helped a lot, but i eventually found that my sitbones were a bit too wide for the B17 anyway, they were too close to the side frame edges of the saddle, so I then switched to the B68 on both my bikes, which was as wide as they come. (I have very wide hips and sitbones to match) It's been heavenly ever since. i ride on the hoods and drops quite a bit and never have any problem with my B68 because of that. I am most comfortable when the saddle nose is tipped ever so slightly up from level.

I am so glad to hear that about the B68. Everything I've read (I know, you shouldn't believe everything you read) made me believe that the B68 is for upright "city" riding and not for longer distance drops/hoods riding.

personally found the B17S forced my whole body to be too far forward. The non-S with the longer rails, shoved all the way back, allowed me to get an inch and a half further back and I felt so much better balanced and off my hands.

I feel like my weight is too far forward too. If I end up with a B68 I will not get the S.

After I get the re-fit with the B17, I'll ride and see if there is significant improvement. If not, I'll probably order the B68.

BTW, I love your Rivendell. Amazing that it's the same seat post. Big difference with the 2 saddles.

[sundial]

...if you position your saddle all the way back on its rails...

Lisa, I can see where you would have center of gravity issues with it shoved all the way back. What I strive to do with all my saddles is to have the rails centered over the seatpost, as I find this offers the best fit, and coincidentally, the best balance on the bike. On the bikes with the relaxed geometry I have to use a setback seatpost. On the bike with the more aggressive geometry, I have to use a zero setback seatpost.

SLash, I remember with each new Brooks saddle the feeling of pressure in the hammock area of the saddle. It wasn't causing pain--just pressure. I took shorter rides initially until it was broken in--which was usually around 120 miles for me. Perhaps as you break in the saddle more it will become less of an issue and you'll feel "one" with the bike. I remember having to make several micro-adjustments up until it was broken in. The nose of the saddles are tilted just a hair up and the seatpost is lowered about an inch or so.

If you have questions about the fit, call Wall Bike. They are more than happy to help their customers.