Made in China- do we care?

[Bike Chick]

Does anyone know of cycling/athletic wear patterns?
There are several "threads" on here about sewing your own clothes. Just do a search. I know that Green Pepper makes cycling clothes patterns and you could always take an old jersey apart to make your own pattern.

Terry was sold at the end of last year. MOst (if not all) production is moving to Asia. Saddles included.
Susan, that's very disappointing news. I had no idea.

Maybe only partially true, and maybe not at all, when you do real-cost accounting and look at the whole picture. If I pay an extra 30% or 40% to buy a product made in my own country, state, or county, then I've made sure that money stays in my community, and some or even all of it it comes back to me. It comes back in a higher tax base - better roads means fewer repairs on my vehicles; better cultural opportunities and libraries mean I don't have to purchase as many books or travel long distances to see shows; better equipped first responders, when I need them, can benefit me financially as well as physically; higher real estate values "raise all boats" (bubbles excepted, of course). It comes back in making it a more livable community, more attractive to professionals whose services I may need in the future, so I don't have to travel a long distance to see a competent (or any!) doctor or lawyer. It comes back in less use of mechanized transport and the associated pollution, and the associated health problems that I pay for both when my own health is affected, and when my insurance premiums reflect my neighbors' impaired health. Et cetera....
Amen, Oak, you are preaching to the choir. I wish many others thought this way.

[moderncyclista]

Maybe I'm naive, but I thought Trek made their frames in the U.S. Nope, my LBS says my lil' 520 was shaped/welded/painted in Taiwan of all places.

Even Cannondale doesn't produce any frames in the U.S. anymore.

*sigh*

What cycling clothing manufacturers make stuff in the U.S. again?

[Cataboo]

trek's high end carbon frames are still made in the US, I believe.

Cars are getting kind of murky, as well... I saw a kia commercial the other day and i think they said their cars were made in Georgia or Alabama or something like that. My ford escort in college was made in Canada.

[NbyNW]

This is a fascinating discussion from the perspective of an American who is living in Canada.

Edmonton seems to be dominated by big box stores -- I really have to go out of my way to spend money at a place that is locally owned and run. And since it's winter, I presume that our fresh produce is either coming from greenhouses or from quite far away.

With regards to goods made abroad, it seems that the primary concerns are, in no particular order (everyone has their own priorities):

- quality/safety of products
- working conditions/human rights
- impact on domestic/local economies
- geopolitical/ethical (i.e., don't agree with Beijing's stance on Tibet or Taiwan, etc.)

As a Taiwanese American, from the time I began earning my own money, I never wanted a cent to go to China. But I found it was nearly impossible as a struggling 20-something in the mid-90s to even buy socks and underwear at my budget that weren't made in China. More options have evolved as American consumers have begun to pay more attention to issues such as labor conditions and product safety, so that's a good thing.

I feel that my stance on this has also evolved. Few things are made entirely in one place anymore. Icebreaker ships its raw wool from NZ to China to be processed and made into finished products. It's a good company with great products and strong environmental ethics, and they've made a great effort to be consistent with those ethics at every stage of production. Yes, their products cost a little more, but it's a company I don't mind supporting.

I was on a whale-watching boat last week, and one of the guides told us, when you do a trip like this, you show the community that there is an economically viable alternative to killing whales.

So, supporting a company like Icebreaker in my mind is a little like eco-tourism. Show the Chinese that ethical practices pay off.

As for the bicycle industry -- I'm just glad that, for the moment, there are millions of Chinese riding bicycles instead of driving cars.

[KnottedYet]

What cycling clothing manufacturers make stuff in the U.S. again?

Some Ibex is made in the USA: www.ibexwear.com
All Joneswares is made in the USA: www.joneswares.com
All Harlot is made in the USA: www.harlotwear.com

I know there're more, but I'm at work and can't sneak off and go searching...

REI has a "specialty shop" option: Made in the USA. Click that, and you get items carried at REI that are made in the US.

[Susan Otcenas]

Some Ibex is made in the USA: www.ibexwear.com
All Joneswares is made in the USA: www.joneswares.com
All Harlot is made in the USA: www.harlotwear.com

I know there're more, but I'm at work and can't sneak off and go searching...

REI has a "specialty shop" option: Made in the USA. Click that, and you get items carried at REI that are made in the US.

Couple things:
We publish the country of origin for pretty much every item on the website. For example: http://www.teamestrogen.com/prodDE_WFTT.html
The right hand side of the product tab (default view) under the photo shows a bunch of fields with details. One of those fields is country of origin. So, you can see that this DeSoto tri suit is made in the USA.

Many of our vendors make many items in the US. Canari & Sheila Moon do almost everything in California, for example. Canada is a popular choice as well, especially with Descente, Shebeest, Sugoi & Louis Garneau.

Certain classes of goods are almost always made in the US (synthtic socks, for example), while other classes of goods are almost NEVER made in the US (jackets and wetsuits being 2 typical examples).

Made in China doesn't mean it's junk. In fact, the Chinese make some of the most technically sophisticated apparel available. Wetsuits are a great example of this. Wetsuits are very difficult to produce (doing a blind stitch on a 1mm neoprene wetsuit sleeve is an art) and the Chinese manufacturers are very very good at it.

The harsh reality is that the vast vast majority of consumers simply will not pay the price it would require to get certain things made in the US. Outerwear is a good example. It is not economically feasible to produce it here. US manufacturers simply can not produce an equivalent product (fabrics/features, etc) for the price most consumers will pay. That is mostly due to the very high cost of US labor. (and that's true of many industries other than apparel. Car parts are another example of that.)

I don't mean to be flip, but the reality is that most people want the very best for the very least cost. That's human nature. That's why Walmart is the biggest retailer on the planet. That's why cotton tees can be had for $4 and a 6 quart crock pot costs $19.99 (or less!) at Target. That's why TVs are no longer manufactured in the US. Consumers simply won't pay the price.

So, to answer the OPs original question "Do we care?"... I'd have to say that many people care, but most don't change their buying habits when push comes to shove.

[shootingstar]

I don't mean to be flip, but the reality is that most people want the very best for the very least cost. That's human nature. That's why Walmart is the biggest retailer on the planet. That's why cotton tees can be had for $4 and a 6 quart crock pot costs $19.99 (or less!) at Target. That's why TVs are no longer manufactured in the US. Consumers simply won't pay the price.

So, to answer the OPs original question "Do we care?"... I'd have to say that many people care, but most don't change their buying habits when push comes to shove.

Thx for the info. about the types of garments etc. and quality expectations, etc. which i didn't include in this excerpt.

Perhaps when pushed against a wall, one area people might care and follow through with their actions, is a consumer product that is not produced/manufactured properly and endangers personal health and safety.

Useful for us to have this discussion to really see how much as changed in terms of economic trade patterns, manufacturing origins, and changes in consumer attitudes. Or slow-moving changes to consumer attitudes.

Small points:
*deeiamond- didn't know how Singapore economically was affected by the shadow of China

*value of life in ther areas of occupational & health safety seems to be less in certain countries. Abit shocking to have learned from one of the engineers who worked in a 5-yr. $3 billion construction project that over 10-15 construction workers died over that time period in Tawain. Not in 1 sweep, but over that time period. The project was just completed early last year.

Very different in occupational health and safety enforcement compared to many industries in Canada and U.S. What is shocking is some firms from developed countries, ie. Germany may not much better. The above engineering Tawain project was managed/steered by the same firm that I worked for a local engineering project. After all, it was the same firm that hired labourers for our engineering project in suburb of Vancouver,....direct from Serbia, Poland, Thailand and Panama. Why? Because they were paid less than Canadians..because alot of our Canadian tradespeople/labourers that we hired, were unionized and hence, higher wages, etc. Meanwhile we had alot of Canadians unemployed. Yes, things made alot of sense...

* Keep in mind before the loss of garment industry in Canada and U.S., there were some sweatshops. Some of my relatives worked in them. But at least the money earned was going back to people who are Canadian.

[Trek420]

The Chinese are great, I love 'em, they do an amazing job and I have no problems buying stuff made there and if anyone from mainland China is lurking a hale and hearty welcome to TE, the best dang place in cyberspace but ....

I want my neighbors to have/keep their jobs too.

The government can not say "let's buy made in the good 'ol USA" or anywhere else if you live somewhere else. If they were to do so everyone screams "protectionism bad bad". But we can! I think we all agree wherever you are and whether you're blue, red, green or chartreuse that we need to keep jobs in the US or wherever we all are.

So chime in; what're a few of your favorite things made here or at least in the same country.

[NbyNW]

So chime in; what're a few of your favorite things made here or at least in the same country.

Great idea! For each city I've lived in:

Pittsburgh: Heinz Ketchup
New York: Steinway pianos
SF/Bay Area: wine, sourdough, and Apple computers
Boston: New Balance shoes
Seattle: Boeing 737s
Edmonton: oil (we're all allowed a guilty pleasure, right?)

[Trek420]

Never been to Vermont .... yet. In a sea of virtually identical bags at REI Knott found:

http://www.reignvermont.com

She can wax poetic about it better than I can but I just I love it. Susan?

[shootingstar]

Great idea! For each city I've lived in:

Pittsburgh: Heinz Ketchup
New York: Steinway pianos

Ah, my partner's brother was the lead salesperson right at the Steinway factory/head office in NYC. He was a Canadian selling well on behalf for U.S. for about 10 yrs. for Steinway's. He lived in NYC.

It's a great firm with great product worldwide. It still is with Yamaha, Pearl River (not sure I got latter brand name straight), let's there's a German firm in on this too...

And Heinz, I saw just this past summer in Ontario, the satellite processing plant in Dresden area just a few kms. where a close friend lives. Near historic sites of the Underground Railroad where the black slaves got freedom in Canada. Heinz bought out the independent tomato Canadian producer there. But the tomato pickers are migrant workers from the Carribbean. can't get enough local folks to pick. We drove by their housing, saw their loaned bikes leaned against the buildings.

I dunno....about 40 kms. or so from Canada-U.S. border. I need a map again.
If Americans and vice versa, could understand how intertwined U.S.-Canada trade relations are. How interdependent these 2 countries are.

The U.S. financial industry crash sorta proved it...except Canadian banks managed to stay afloat and Canadian banking execs. still get their bonuses without govn't bailout. Just knuckling under same old Can. regulatory control that we are grateful for.

*It never hurts to request and ask other countries at least, to look after the health and safety of their workers and consumers. Expose the culprits, embarrass them abit. Maybe a few might pay attention in future.

[deeaimond]

Great idea! For each city I've lived in:

Pittsburgh: Heinz Ketchup
New York: Steinway pianos
SF/Bay Area: wine, sourdough, and Apple computers
Boston: New Balance shoes
Seattle: Boeing 737s
Edmonton: oil (we're all allowed a guilty pleasure, right?)

are Apple computers still made in the USA? I bought mine recently and (along with several other things I bought) they usually say designed in California made in China. My iMac was shipped in from Shanghai.

Susan had a good point about the quality of some good products made in China. They do have the expertise and are investing in it.

Also Smilingcat made a scary point.

I've also heard about companies who import all their parts and materials and only assemble/ finish in the US so they can label it 'made in the USA'.

[bmccasland]

There's an interesting TV ad running right now...
Small independant barber shop, been there for a long time, then a "big box" shop opens directly across the street from him and offers hair cuts for $6. So he goes to a BigBox office supply store and gets a banner sign that says "we fix $6 hair cuts" and 6 months later the competitor across the street closes.

We're supposed to feel happy because the little guy beat out his BigBox competitor. But no one was supposed to notice that he didn't go to a small business sign store for his banner. No, he bought his banner from a BigBox Office supply chain. I guess the small business sign shop was already put out of business, but the local barber still has a chance?

[NbyNW]

are Apple computers still made in the USA?

You're right, they're not, I just couldn't resist putting them on my list. We could probably have a whole separate thread as to whether "Designed in the USA" counts or not. I think the Intel chips are made/designed in the USA - anyone know for sure?

There are so many great products designed in the USA that are manufactured all or on part elsewhere. I think the issue then becomes whether it is being done ethically, and in a nation where we do want to support trade. Trade is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully our trade partners are buying about as much from us as we are from them.

[Grog]

I want my neighbors to have/keep their jobs too.

The government can not say "let's buy made in the good 'ol USA" or anywhere else if you live somewhere else. If they were to do so everyone screams "protectionism bad bad". But we can! I think we all agree wherever you are and whether you're blue, red, green or chartreuse that we need to keep jobs in the US or wherever we all are.

The hard geopolitical reality is that the reason why the American government can't say "let's buy Made in the USA" is because it pretty much imposes the same on others. A LOT of jobs in the USA depend on the export of American products and services in higher value-added areas (complex services, technological products, etc. not consumer goods). Americans disproportionately benefit from the anti-protectionist agreements they have signed with other countries, NAFTA for example. These countries don't necessarily prevent the American government from acting in a protectionist way: if an international court rules against the USA, they can simply ignore the ruling. Power is not distributed evenly on this planet.

Coming from a minority standpoint (Quebec, a French-language island in a very loudly English-speaking part of the world), I know that protecting certain areas for social, political, or cultural reasons has become extremely difficult. This is not so much a problem in the USA, but it is in other countries whose local industry cannot resist the massive investments and sometimes dumping of American products. The scale just can't compare.

As Susan pointed out, we can ask people to "Buy American" (or "Buy Canadian") all we want, most still won't. People would rather have more purchasing power than supporting local business. The fact that the real salaries of the middle class have not really increased in the last few years certainly does not help, to say nothing of those of the poor! On the other hand, I also know that people want their pension savings to increase in value, thus they want the corporations whose shares they own to make profits and distribute dividends. So corporations do what they have to do to attain that goal, including localizing their production where labour is cheap and regulation lax.

I do not necessarily agree (although I think it's not black and white) but I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.