Minarets in Switzerland

[Tuckervill]

In cities like Brussels there are A LOT of muslims. In large parts of the city every westener has moved. Sometimes I have to go in these parts of the town and each and every time I'm harassed by the men. Why? Because I don't wear a veil. Sometimes they stand around you with 6 to 12 men at the same time, and I can tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. They say I don't respect their religion. I'm sorry, but where is their respect for me?????

Now they want to announce their moments of prayer via megaphones. We really don't want that. It's like we're living in a muslim country and we're not.

In countries like Belgium, France, Holland there's a whole veil debate. Are they allowed to wear one at school? Or at work? It's a huge statement, you know. It's not like you're wearing a discrete cross or whatever.

I know quite a few Turkish and Moroccan girls and they are all forced to wear a veil. The men have become a lot more fanatic the last ten years or so. I've been to muslim countries and there the people are much more tolerant to Europeans and to women in general.

Last month a Moroccan girl was killed by her parents and their imman, her crime: she had a girlfriend. They tortured her with boiling water. There are quite a few 'murders for honour' here where brothers or fathers kill their sister because she doesn't want to marry the man of their choice or because she has a relationship with another boy.

There is absolutely NO integration whatsoever with the local population. They don't want to. They only go to their shops, pay with their native currency, you don't see them on TV. They just live on their island and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

So yes I can understand the Swiss population. I wish I didn't though.

Okay, this is getting further to the point of my distress over the minarets. Minarets are just a SYMBOL of this kind of behavior, I'm to presume?

But, aren't these behaviors prosecutable under current law? Is it legal in Belgium for a large group of men to harass a woman on the street? (How frightening that must have been!) Is it legal to disturb the peace with loud announcements? (We have church bells here and no one seems to mind them--and they don't even call anyone to anything. They're just for fun!)

Why don't the citizens of Brussels call the police on this behavior, and control it with existing laws? Is it too far gone? Do the police ignore the complaints? What?

Karen

[papaver]

what can they do? There's just verbal violence. In those streets there are no more local people. And the ones that do stay there, keep very very quiet.

There are some area's in Brussels the police won't even go any more. It's just too dangerous.

It hasn't always been like that, you know. When I lived in Gent there was a large population of muslims too. And there was never a problem, the muslim girls at my school never wore veils. It since the last 10 years or so that they became so radical.

[Tuckervill]

As "visitors" to your country, you'd think they'd be a little more careful about what they do. Maybe they don't fear being deported enough.

I'd have a real hard time with knowing there are parts of town the police WON'T go into. Sounds like they're just giving up, to me.

Karen

[Grog]

As "visitors" to your country, you'd think they'd be a little more careful about what they do. Maybe they don't fear being deported enough.

I am not quite sure what you mean, but certainly "immigrants" are not "visitors" and the children of "immigrants" in most countries are called "citizens" and should definitely not have to fear deportation. (To say nothing of naturalized immigrants.) Immigration is crucial for the future of Western countries, if only because we have a lot more old people than young people, and someone needs to work and keep the economy going. Countries like Canada and a number of European countries have assertive immigration policies, and depend on the influx of people from other countries.

I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would think twice before posting to this thread. This is not an easy topic to address, even more so if one feels personally connected to it (as Papaver and LPH mention).

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

[papaver]

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

It worries me a lot too. Because for now, there is no solution.

I want to point out that I'm not against Islam. Nor any other religion. But I'm saddened by the fact that some individuals abuse their religion to show their disrespect to others. Aggression leads to more aggression, and where does it all end? It's sad because hundreds of years ago, Islam was very respectful towards women. A lot more than catholicism was in those days. I have no problem with women chosing for a veil, but unfortunately at least 50% are forced into wearing one. And that's 50% too many.

[Tuckervill]

I am not quite sure what you mean, but certainly "immigrants" are not "visitors" and the children of "immigrants" in most countries are called "citizens" and should definitely not have to fear deportation. (To say nothing of naturalized immigrants.) Immigration is crucial for the future of Western countries, if only because we have a lot more old people than young people, and someone needs to work and keep the economy going. Countries like Canada and a number of European countries have assertive immigration policies, and depend on the influx of people from other countries.

I am not Muslim, but if I was, I would think twice before posting to this thread. This is not an easy topic to address, even more so if one feels personally connected to it (as Papaver and LPH mention).

I definitely do not agree with it, but I can very well understand how Islam became radicalized these last few years, and how the opposite point of view is getting equally radical, and how the escalation is hurting all of us. It worries me quite a bit, actually.

I believe absolutely SOMETHING should happen to large groups of men who surround and harass non-Muslim women [eta: and Muslim women for that matter] in Brussels, immigrants or not. If deportation is the answer, let them be deported. Even if it's just "verbal violence". What is wrong with their justice system?!?

If I were walking through a neighborhood in a large, densely populated city, say, like Memphis where I used to live, and had to run that gauntlet, you can bet I would be calling the police! Why give up and let it happen to the next person? Why let them get away with it? And WHY, instead of creating a whole category of what is basically "architectural discrimination" in your laws, why not enforce the existing laws designed to prevent violence and disturbing the peace?

That's my whole question.

And by the way, non-naturalized citizens, in the US at least, do not enjoy the complete smorgasbord of freedoms that the rest of us do. They can be deported. If the justice system has this option at their disposal, then I don't see the harm in using it when appropriate.

Karen

[shootingstar]

what can they do? There's just verbal violence. In those streets there are no more local people. And the ones that do stay there, keep very very quiet.

There are some area's in Brussels the police won't even go any more. It's just too dangerous.

It hasn't always been like that, you know. When I lived in Gent there was a large population of muslims too. And there was never a problem, the muslim girls at my school never wore veils. It since the last 10 years or so that they became so radical.

The harassin' guys are just like...um...sorry, like some of the white guys I encountered on my way to work out to the suburbs last year. There are transit police (hired by the transit authority with legal powers to arrest and charge) floating around...at the stations..not on the bus. I felt sorry for a Sikh Translink bus driver (he wore a turban) who withstood the harrassment of 3 white folks, 2 guys and 1 gal who called him a raghead and refused to pay the bus fare. I tried to defend the guy, but the harrassers just turned at me with enormous hate in their eyes, to 'go back to where I was from'.

Well perhaps the Brussels police can learn alot from contacting the City of Toronto or City of Vancouver police or any of the major U.S. police departments who who have decades more experience than some of the European countries, of what hasn't or has worked on how the police can work more effectively with community leaders. There does have to customized public outreach programs at the grassroots level to specific groups in specific languages.

Such working partnerships are long-term, not shotgun (pardon the pun) whenever a 'problem' arises. And often this needs to be done with social worker/social work agency serving those community groups.

I'm saying this....because prior to cycling, for several years I was an active national board member for a major organization with a mandate on race relations ..coming from those of Chinese descent in Canada. Our organization worked at improving long-term relationships with Toronto police after perceived problems of crime, etc. among a tiny handful of folks in a large group of ordinary residents. The situation was being overblown in the local and national news.
_______________________________________________________________

The actions of a couple folks who are perceived as temporary workers or non-citizens, should NEVER be applied to the entire community. Yet this happens often without proper information. And do we know all the harrassing guys are temporary workers?
_____________________________________________________________

To my understanding, here in Canada, 'naturalized' Canadian citizen...means someone born in Canada. One acquires Canadian citizenship automatically.

An immigrant (who has applied through the normal paperwork and check process, then approved by federal government) must apply for permant resident status ...to get their permanent resident card after they land in Canada. A landed immigrant and permanent resident must pay taxes just like Canadians.

Then to be eligible to apply for Canadian citizenship, they must be a resident in Canada at minimum for 3 years before applying. After applying, there is a test on applicant's knowledge about Canadian symbols, history, concepts. Before citizenship is officially granted.
_______________________________________________________________

thanks for latest BBC newslink, crazycanuck.

[tulip]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

[KnottedYet]

In the US, naturalized means that you were not born in the US and that you became a citizen later.

"Naturalized" means the exact same thing in Canada: not born in Canada and you became a citizen later.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/concepts/de...ennete-eng.htm

[OakLeaf]

(We have church bells here and no one seems to mind them--and they don't even call anyone to anything. They're just for fun!)

Angelus bells are a call to prayer; bells are rung on Sundays to call parishioners to worship, and some churches ring their tower bells as the Sanctus bells during the Mass. I don't think your local clergy would consider the bells and music "just for fun." Your non-Christian neighbors might not mind the bells - as I, a non-Muslim, enjoy hearing the adhan - but I can see how any of those might offend some people.

Wearing a veil is no more an "ostentatious trapping of religion" than wearing a shirt. It's a cultural standard of modesty.

I acknowledged before that secularism in Europe is very different from secularism in the USA. If churches aren't allowed steeples, then sorta fine - sorta, just because no one actually is building new churches, and fundamentalist Christians could safely enact such a law without it ever actually affecting them. But when different standards are applied depending on the race and religion of the people they're applied against, that's when I start to have a problem. And when immigrants and the children and grandchildren of immigrants are treated as "visitors" with rights subordinate to the native born - just as Mexican-Americans are here - that, I have a problem with, too.

[Tuckervill]

Angelus bells are a call to prayer; bells are rung on Sundays to call parishioners to worship, and some churches ring their tower bells as the Sanctus bells during the Mass. I don't think your local clergy would consider the bells and music "just for fun." Your non-Christian neighbors might not mind the bells - as I, a non-Muslim, enjoy hearing the adhan - but I can see how any of those might offend some people.

Wearing a veil is no more an "ostentatious trapping of religion" than wearing a shirt. It's a cultural standard of modesty.

I acknowledged before that secularism in Europe is very different from secularism in the USA. If churches aren't allowed steeples, then sorta fine - sorta, just because no one actually is building new churches, and fundamentalist Christians could safely enact such a law without it ever actually affecting them. But when different standards are applied depending on the race and religion of the people they're applied against, that's when I start to have a problem. And when immigrants and the children and grandchildren of immigrants are treated as "visitors" with rights subordinate to the native born - just as Mexican-Americans are here - that, I have a problem with, too.

Except, these are on the Baptist churches. There is one Catholic church in my town (20,000 people), and it's so far away from any residences or businesses that no one would hear the bells if they rang them (the church does have a bell on top of it, which I recall from my exploration of Catholicism in the '90s is used in certain rites and ceremonies). "Just for fun" was a little flip, but bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

[Trek420]

bells on churches are really just "traditional" here--not used for any real purpose.

Karen

.... except funding the church these days

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/te...a-steeple.html

[crazycanuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8417076.stm

[shootingstar]

I need to look again at definitions.

Easier to refer myself as a CBC (either it's a Canadian Broadcasting Corp., that is funded in part by federal Canadian govn't and with partial Canadian content or Canadian-born Chinese).

In the U.S., it's ABC (same parallels).

I'm not that negative about fundamentalism for Islam occurring in North America nor European. Simply because the next generation in order to survive, does end up assimilating over time, if their parents/older generations do not. Which several generations later...alot is forgotten for good, unfortunately. Every culture/language has good stuff worth keeping.

Assimilation forces are quite strong. And applicable for some (not all) women who might appear confined in a very patriarchical, fundamentalist family situation, but living in Europe or North America. At least the chances of her being heard for help outside of her community, are greater with less societal ostracization. It does take enormous personal courage and perseverance for these women to break free from tradition.

So for now, promoting exercise, if it includes cycling, for Muslim women in traditional garb, is still a good idea.

For papaver, would still lodge a complaint with local police...even if they do nothing it's on paper in their log. If they don't have the data over time, there's less evidence for them to be proactive.

[tc1]

Community outreach is nice and warm and fuzzy, but you should also call the law on the harassers. Community outreach also takes a long time, and works for those who are more inclined to be cooperative.

Organized rides through the problem areas. Make sure the rides are mixed gender, so that your message is that society supports your right to go where you wish. Bring the press.

In the US we have had trouble with fundamentalists of all persuasions. Most of the time (at least the stuff that makes the news) the authorities are far too hands-off regarding violations of the law. The best thing the US could do to solve our problem with this is to take away the tax-exempt status of all religious organizations, except for the funds used for charitable work. Missionary work is not charitable work, either.