friend coming out of the closet - tips appreciated

[snapdragen]

why do you suggest that people should be closeted on TE? So far as I can tell, many are not. You certainly are not.

+1 mimi

There are a number of open people here, I don't think anyone is closeted, unless they choose to be. Implying that one must hide ones self on the TE boards is ludicrous.

[OakLeaf]

I seem to remember some pretty unkind things being said in the Prop. 8 thread. Maybe I'm misremembering, it's been a while ago, and I'm sure those who were the target of the remarks and the Proposition remember it better than I, who was neither.

And who knows what kind of PMs Trek and others might have received.

I think in any case, if someone says she's been discriminated against, "no you haven't" isn't the appropriate response.

I guess that would be a tip for lph. If your friend comes to you distraught because someone's reacted badly to her coming out, don't call her "ludicrous."

[Trek420]

Actually I find this surprising as well.
It seems to me that we are quite a tolerant/friendly/open discussion board, where many different people talk bicycles, regardless of individual differences. At least from what I see, it appears that we all welcome and respect everyone here, regardless of different race, ethnicity, ideals, political opinion, social class, employment, status, sexual orientation, etc.

Well, this is a cycling forum after all and all in all a pretty welcoming bunch for all sorts. We've had our moments of friendly and not so much discourse. Taken as a group personally I'm more worried that I don't think we do as well on issues of race and or class; the beginner with a Wallmart bike for example .. we tend to be a kind of exclusive bunch.

But you will not find a brighter, more knowledgeable, nor a more articulate group on the web.

Long live TE.

LPH there are even many gay cycling clubs if your friend and her gal want to ride off in the sunset together here's just one of many:

www.fastnfab.org

[TxDoc]

LPH there are even many gay cycling clubs if your friend and her gal want to ride off in the sunset together

Now, this is what I find confusing. And sorry, this may end up being long but I am really confused!!!
We are trying to give LPH some good advice - and of course some people know more than others about the topic and have more suggestions. The real good advice that several people have agreed on is "act normal". Which sounds really very reasonable to me. It's a friend who is in a new relationship, just be happy for her and be a good friend. Sounds good.
And then - a 'gay cycling club'.
What?
Why would someone need a 'gay cycling club' - or a 'gay bar' for that matter, or a 'gay restaurant', or a 'gay night club', or whatever? I mean, why can't we all meet in the same places, clubs, bars... Where is it written that some people have to gather in one place and some in another - just because of who they are in a relationship with?
What are we, segregated? Can't we all simply belong to a cycling club, period, without creating a new apartheid?

It seems like a contradiction: on one side we all tell LPH to act normal, because we are a progressive society and we treat everyone appropriately - and then on the other side it's like some groups decide to confine themselves and build their own little niche where only they can get together, and where the rest of us are not allowed.

I mean - we all scream at racism - but is this any different than creating a 'Caucasian-only restaurant', or the 'Chinese-only bar', or the 'African-American-only cycling club'? You express concerns about social class discrimination, but how is this different from having a 'CEO-only-restaurant', or a 'blue-collars-only-bar'? I just made all those up, and really hope that none of them exists - and that every club and bar and anything else welcomes everyone.
It looks like if someone wanted to build his own 'ghetto' himself - why would anyone do that? Why in the world would you want to be separated from everyone else - if your goal is to be considered as normal as everyone else, and treated as appropriately and respectfully as everyone else?

This really I do not understand.
I think that the more normal everyone is acting - the more people will stop turning their head at anything that looks different, be it color, gender, orientation... Decades ago a woman or an African-American in law school or medical school would turn heads. Thanks to the Lord - we have evolved! Likewise, decades ago a gay couple in a restaurant would have turned head - but again, thanks to God, we have evolved.

Does it mean we all approve everything? Heck no. We all have our ideas, religion, opinions. Just think about politics for one - how many of your friends have a different political affiliation than the one you have? Are you less friends because of their different opinion? I'm quite sure the answer is no. I'm a proud Republican and I'm good friend with a bunch of liberals. We have some animated discussions during the campaigns - but we are not less friends because of that. And I would feel quite weird if I was offered to belong to a 'Republican-only-cycling-club'...
We all have our agrees and disagrees in this world - but that does not mean that we have to exclude anyone from circles, clubs, groups, gatherings, businesses, etc. So why would someone decide to just exclude himself to begin with?


For the same reason I do not understand (and much less approve!) the manifestations of excess like those pride parades etc. if someone's purpose is to live a normal life without being 'discriminated' - then why does he/she act in a totally abnormal fashion? It gives the impression that the purpose is really to demonstrate aggressivity and disturb or irritate others who may have a different opinion. It's like instead of working towards unity, someone is working towards division - and it does not make any sense.
Can we all just be more spontaneous, less aggressive, and try to help each other and work together?

All this may sound naive to you - but hey, here's where I come from:
I grew up Catholic and I am still a practicing one. Well, my Pastor always says that I worship two Gods - the real God and Medicine but I'm doing my best
Anyway, when I was young I used to always go to church with my grandmother. One thing she often said is that we are all good in Church on Sunday when we listen to the sermon - but the real challenge is to get out in the real world an put it all into practice. We get out there and we meet a number of different people: those we like, those we don't like, those we agree with, those we are opposed to, and even a bunch of those we completely disapprove... Of course our first impulse would be to turn our back and walk the other way. And right there, it's where God puts us to the test: can we reach out and welcome everyone as brother and sister - no matter how different he/she is from us? Can we show respect to everyone - regardless of whether we approve or disapprove his/her choices, beliefs, actions, and lifestyle?
If the answer is no, then according to grandma we still have a lot to learn from the Bible.

[lph]

I think this is one of those things where you just have to belong to the group in question to see the need or desire for a separate meeting place. We have our own "segregated" women's cycling forum right here. It's not women-only/men-barred, as I'm certain a gay cycling club would never be gay-only/straight-barred. But it's FOR women, and it's not just because we have different anatomy from men, but because we for various reasons feel we have more in common with each other and find this a valuable place to meet.

But I'm now backing quietly out of this discussion Thank you very much for valuable tips and friendly support, as always! Much appreciated.

[DebW]

TxDoc, your position is certainly debated in the gay community, and most gays would welcome a world in which the ideal you describe is the practice. That ideal world has been termed "post-gay" and we're slowly approaching that. But as long as gay people in the US and elsewhere are treated as second-class citizens, as long as people can be fired from their jobs for being gay, as long as the federal government has laws on the books REQUIRING discrimination against gay people (DOMA, DADT), as long as gay-bashing and homophobia make people afraid for their safety, then gay people will march in parades to be visible and demand their rights. Those of us who can march in parades and be visible are doing it for all those can't: the people who remain closeted out of fear, the high school kid struggling to tell a parent that they're gay, the service member who has to edit every word they say just to serve their country. When a gay couple can walk down the street holding hands anywhere in the country without fear or even getting stared at, and when everyone is not automatically presumed to be straight and presumed to have two parents of the opposite sex, then we will have arrived. But until then, gay people will seek out groups and situations where they can feel comfortable being themselves and showing affection to a partner in public. And even after that day arrives, there will be gay social groups just to increase the odds of finding dating material.

[papaver]

Asking "why should there be gay groups" is like asking "why should there be female bicycle forums".

People (no watter what gender, orientation, religion, hobby) are always looking for people like themselves.

[tantrumbean]

As for gay nightclubs, gay cycling groups, etc - yes, it would be nice if there was no need for them, but sometimes it is just really nice to know that you can be totally open and not have to worry about peoples attitudes! Because, unlike being straight you do have to constantly consider if people are going to be ok if you come out to them. In fact, it's hard work constantly having to weigh it up anyway. If you are straight, you can just mention your partner without having to think about avoiding pronouns in case you get a funny reaction. If you are gay, you can't. For example, me and my partner are both members of the same cycling club, most people in there are quite a lot older than us, and we've never come out to them, just because it's not worth it. To be honest, most of them would probably be perfectly fine, but the risk of funny reactions is just not worth it. They think we are friends, some probably suspect, but we haven't made it official. Also, it's one of those things where you just know that everybody is going to gossip about it behind your back for a bit, till it all calms down again and to be quite honest, you get to a point where you just can't be bothered.

As somebody above said, coming out is a continuing process, you have to do it over and over again, and sometimes it does get a bit tedious. Even if people are ok about it, you still get asked the same questions over and over again. This is where exclusively gay clubs, etc just give a welcome respite. Also, for a lot of people who are struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, it's a safe place to talk about their experiences to others who've been through the same stuff and come out at the other end...

Oops, that turned into a bit of a long post...

[ridebikeme]

Very well said Deb and Tantrumbean!!

The reality is this: in large groups of people, there are ALWAYS smaller groups of people that form.. for better commuincation, more things in common, etc...

LPH thank you for being concerned for your friend; I'm sure that she truly values your friendship!!

[Crankin]

This might sound opposite of what I intend to say, but, really, I think the reason we have "gay bars," or "executive" restaurants is that generally, people want to be around people who are like themselves. *Especially* if you belong to a group that is marginalized or objectified in any way. It helps you deal with the crap that you get from others. I know that when I lived in AZ, I certainly was much more active in the Jewish community; I was on the board of the JCC, my kids went to pre school there, and I was a Sunday School teacher at my temple (I know, you can't believe it). It helped, especially in situations with the kids, being asked about X Mas, why they had to miss school for the High Holidays, etc. Strength in numbers. It felt like a safe place, a home.
When I moved back east, I still affiliated with a temple, but I don't feel the need to have to explain myself, my culture to everyone. People here know more about different religions, because there is more of a diversity of them. And, it's not so acceptable to make the kinds of comments I used to hear.
Someone said that we as cyclists, are also classist, etc. Well, cycling is an expensive sport. It doesn't have to be (hence, the Walmart bike), but from what I've seen, most people get "hooked" on the gear. But, I think it's more than that. Since I started cycling, I don't really like being around some of my other friends. They seem so negative when it comes to exercising, getting outside, caring about their body. All I hear is "I can't do what you do." Well, maybe, but you *could* take a walk, use the facilities at that expensive health club you belong to, etc. It just comes down to the fact that I prefer to be around those who are leading the same lifestyle as me. With me, it's cycling, but it could be based on anything.
Well, I am getting off topic. I will end with a funny and related story. About 15 years ago, we went to Burke Mountain, in Vermont. My kids and DH were downhill skiing, and I was waiting for them in the lodge, after doing some x country. As they came in and we were getting our gear together, we heard a man say very loudly, "Why are you staring? What's the matter? You've never seen a Black man skiing before?" Everyone laughed, but it was so true. People were staring at him, because they probably never had seen a Black person skiing...

[shadow67]

HI!
I don't see any huge difficulties here. She was your friend before she came out to you and that hasn't changed. Just an extra hug and an "I'm happy,if you are happy" is all it takes. As a gay woman who was never "in" I never had to come out One's sexual orientation is but a small part of the whole person.Just keep on keeping on with the friendship and I think all will be well! Shad

[Biciclista]

some of us spend years learning a language and then taking a trip to finally find people like themselves. I can absolutely definitely understand why people might want to hang out in gay bars, or women's cycling forums or exclusive men's clubs where old f@rts can sit around drinking booze and smoking stogies.

TxDoc, I guess you need to go somewhere where YOU are the only one who...
speaks your language, shares your religion, has your skin color, or sexual orientation, and stay there for a week and then you will discover the instant comfort of finding someone LIKE YOURSELF.

[Irulan]

"Why are you staring? What's the matter? You've never seen a Black man skiing before?" Everyone laughed, but it was so true. People were staring at him, because they probably never had seen a Black person skiing...

lol, they've never been to a resort that's hosting the annual Brotherhood of Skiers convention... lordy, what a party....

[shootingstar]

This might sound opposite of what I intend to say, but, really, I think the reason we have "gay bars," or "executive" restaurants is that generally, people want to be around people who are like themselves. *Especially* if you belong to a group that is marginalized or objectified in any way. It helps you deal with the crap that you get from others. I know that when I lived in AZ, I certainly was much more active in the Jewish community; I was on the board of the JCC, my kids went to pre school there, and I was a Sunday School teacher at my temple (I know, you can't believe it). It helped, especially in situations with the kids, being asked about X Mas, why they had to miss school for the High Holidays, etc. Strength in numbers. It felt like a safe place, a home.
When I moved back east, I still affiliated with a temple, but I don't feel the need to have to explain myself, my culture to everyone. ..........................................................................................................................As they came in and we were getting our gear together, we heard a man say very loudly, "Why are you staring? What's the matter? You've never seen a Black man skiing before?" Everyone laughed, but it was so true. People were staring at him, because they probably never had seen a Black person skiing...

Like Crankin, I went through all this type of identity strengthening/bonding when hanging out with other Chinese-Canadians for a few years after moving out to Toronto from living and growing up in predominantly white smaller cities. Often the Asian headcount at school in such cities..were my own siblings.

It ain't balkanization, TxDoc at times, people need affirmations of the best of their identity and if the dominant culture won't give it la or even understand it...then for the sake of one's psyche, be with some folks who will. The danger is staying exclusively in that group for all one's social needs.

As for the black person skiing...lol...here in Vancouver, BC, to see a black person cycling IS still highly noticeable at cycling events.

[Crankin]

Yes, you could say the same thing about cycling here in New England, although I have seen some change in diversity in the last 2 years or so, at least among recreational cyclists.
We noticed it a lot when we took our son to races a few years ago. There was no diversity at all in the teams. And while professional cycling is often seen as a route "up and out" in Europe, it is definitely an upper middle class sport here.