Behind the Scenes @ Chrysler Dealers

[Eden]

PS UAW workers don't make 60-80 an hour

According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff

umm 28 + 33 does equal 61, so its not so off base, but from what I understand there is a bit of misinformation out there that comes from the auto makers.... who often quote the average salary of their employees based on their salaries, their benefits and the benefits that they are still paying retirees.

[myjas]

I am UAW here and do not make 60-80 an hour. That figure is with benefits and anything else companies have to pay for us.

[beth h]

While I think that thousands of autoworkers losing their jobs is awful, I can't pretend I'm shocked about any of this.

We all have the ability to make choices in our lives: how and where to live and what to do for a living, and how we get around.

I have lived car-free for nearly 20 years. I have watched the high cost of driving continue to be subsidized (and therefore largely camouflaged) by government. Instead I would prefer that the government began subsidizing mass transit, mixed-income housing and job re-training, smart-growth and urban density, and smaller, more localized economies of scale for everyone. We don't need McMansions OR McCars. What we DO need is more community, and perhaps the beginning of the end of car culture is key to developing that for everyone.

We saw (or should have seen) this collapse coming for decades. Those of us who already live closer to the ground simply won't have as far to fall. Those who fall farther will need more help to adapt. Instead of putting off the inevitable, let's help those who are falling learn the new skills and mindset they'll need to help them transition to a simpler, more localized life that the end of car culture really means. Teach community gardening; barter; scavenging, recycling/repurposing and creating as alternatives to constant consumerism. Teach the laid-off auto workers new skills and put them to work rebuilding our crumbling inner cities and improving transit-bike-pedestrian travel in them. Elevate teachers to their rightful place of respect and rebuild the schools as smaller, leaner, more independently-functioning institutions that answer to their local communities. Utilize parent-teacher-COMMUNITY partnerships to give our kids the skills they'll REALLY need to adapt to a changing world: creative, independent thinking, conflict resolution and teamwork, and the ability -- and WILLINGNESS -- to live on less.

Meanwhile, the powers-that-be at the Big Three get NO sympathy from me. The bloated, consumerist way of life their industry represents is part of the past, not the future.

[ilima]

From stories I've heard and read dealers were placed under very heavy pressure to buy a bunch of inventory in recent months. And it was implied that this would ensure that the dealership would not be axed.

Something smells really rotten about the way Chrysler executives operated.

I hope that those dealerships sue over broken verbal contracts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/23/bu...l?ref=business

http://www.tampabay.com/news/busines...cle1005012.ece

http://www.bradenton.com/business/story/1465372.html

And just a general comment about wages because it's been mentioned several times on the thread. The $60-80 per hour that's been floating around the media is how much the big three are paying in total towards worker costs divided by the total number of active workers. That includes retirement, health care, etc.

Importantly, all the benefits and healthcare costs of retirees go into this number that's made to sound like active (not retired) workers are making a ton of money. friend of mine is from Detroit and her grandfather is a retired autoworker. She remarked that he's been retired for longer than he worked. I'm sure there are more retired autoworkers in Detroit than there are active workers.

People are living longer and as they get older their health care costs are going to go up. The Japanese companies haven't been in the US that long, so they don't have that many retired workers, so that's why their costs per worker appear lower. In reality, the pay at Japanese-owned factories is only a couple of bucks an hour less than the UAW-Detroit hourly wage averages (e.g. $26 vs. $28 an hour). A good illustration of how healthcare costs are really dragging this country down.

Some links about the mythical $70/hour UAW worker:

http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200812150003

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.ht...2-56dfc3323682

[Tri Girl]

All employers pad your salary with benefits and all. I really make about 5K more than I bring home in benefits, but it's not what I make.

I'm jealous no matter if it's $28 or $60. As a teacher, I only make $18/hr once it's all averaged out for 40 hrs a week over a 10 month school year (it would be less if I actually figured in how many hours I work a week because it's definitely more than 40).

But I know there are people out there that would be jealous of my $18/hr so I don't complain. We all chose our line of work and think we should make more than we do, right?

[TxDoc]

First: The franchise agreement is cancelable. Period. Always has been...and the dealers knew it when they "bought" (better word is "were granted") it.

Second: Factors affecting the choices: CUSTOMER SERVICE ratings, volume, conformity to brand requirements, focus (are they multibrand or single), etc.

Third: Chyrsler has ONLY FOUR MODELS in their '09 line up. This is no longer a full brand company...and hasn't been for years.

Fourth: Any car dealer worth their salt started reducing inventory MONTHS ago. The fact that this guy has 125 on his lot strikes me as contrary to sound business judgement in the current environment...unless he is a high volume/high customer satisfaction dealer...and if he was...he wouldn't have gotten the ax.

My heart's not bleeding (and I'm generally a compassionate person...)

Yep, +1, I am with Mr. Silver here.
And by the way, I currently do drive a Chrysler, which I am very happy with regardless that it gulps down a gallon for like 17 miles!

[Mr. Bloom]

I am UAW here and do not make 60-80 an hour. That figure is with benefits and anything else companies have to pay for us.

myjas, it all counts.
I'm an executive officer in my company and last year, the value of my compensation was 90% salary and 10% benefits (bonus was $0 because it is tied to a high level of profitability even though my workload has never been heavier)...and on top of that:
- between copays and premiums, I pay most of my health coverage
- there is NO PENSION or Retiree Health Care to look forward to
- I'm paid the same whether I work 40 hours/week or 60 hours/week...and the latter is more the norm...and
- I never get to turn it off because when you have employees and families relying on you to make good decisions for everyone's mutual benefit and security, well, you care and wind up being on 24 hour call.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining, but I'm simply pointing out that it is the entire package that creates value, not just the hourly wage...

[ilima]

myjas, it all counts.
I'm an executive officer in my company and last year, the value of my compensation was 90% salary and 10% benefits (bonus was $0 because it is tied to a high level of profitability even though my workload has never been heavier)...and on top of that:
- between copays and premiums, I pay most of my health coverage
- there is NO PENSION or Retiree Health Care to look forward to
- I'm paid the same whether I work 40 hours/week or 60 hours/week...and the latter is more the norm...and
- I never get to turn it off because when you have employees and families relying on you to make good decisions for everyone's mutual benefit and security, well, you care and wind up being on 24 hour call.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining, but I'm simply pointing out that it is the entire package that creates value, not just the hourly wage...

Even factoring in bennies, active workers aren't getting that much. The $60-80 was a bogus number that has been repeated over and over.

[smilingcat]

Well I am not sure what the total compensation the hourly workers get. Yest there are hidden cost that employees do not see nor understand.

But I don't think this is the whole problem at the big three. I have other gripes about the big three. and we should not focus on the hourly workers total compensation. That is NOT ALL THE PROBLEM. Don't blame wholely on the hourly workers!

Poor management.
A. Failed to upgrade their production facility while the rest of the world continuously upgraded the factory. VW group, even Porche, the Koreans and the Japanese have made tremendous strides in factory operation.

B. Not keeping up with the trend and changes in style, taste and features. Why is it that the big three have to bring back old dead models as new?

C. Failing to adopt new technology that consumers demand.

D. lack of vision of where things are headed. We started the car industry we are the leaders!! That's what they want to think. WRONG!! Europeans and the Japanese are so far ahead in all areas, the big three need to go learn from them. Case in point CAFE standard. its a pretty much a laughing stock for US. By the time we get there in 2012 was it? the Europeans and the Japanese are already surpassing those numbers. And they will be past 40MPG. Europeans have a higher MPG than even the Japanese.

D. biggest failure is failure to meet customer expectation. Quality, reliability.

----------

Back when Honda introduced the Honda CVCC, I had a chance to ask one of the engineers at **** an interesting question. "What do you think of the stratified cumbustion system being developed and used by Honda? They claim they do not need a catalytic converter to meet the emission standard." The reply I got was "Well young lady, you are blah blah blah... Its lot more complicated problem than you could possibly understand. blah blah blah..." I thought he was full of it, so patronizing. I saw some released CVCC engine data performance. Oh it didn't help I'm Japanese. BTW, honda CVCC did not use a catalytic converter nor an air pump and still met the emission standards back in the '70s. The cost saving of not having the converter allowed them to sell the car at much lower price point than Chrysler, GM or Ford. Why do you think they were so popular. It also helped too that they went after a market segment ignored by the big three, WOMEN. And they cleaned up.

State of the art cars without doubt is the formula one grand prix cars. Not NASCARS not INDY cars. INDY cars are bigger than the Formula cars. The technology in the formula race cars are unbelievable. Lotus in UK, Ferrai from Italy, Jaguar, Merceds, BMW, Honda and even Toyota are all involved. Not GM nor Chrysler. Because they are not up to snuff.

Lotus have the best active suspension system. They sell their development system to GM to help GM develop better suspension systems.

Honda's engine development is by far the best of the group. The race engines are equipped with all sorts of sensors to gather performance data and transmitted via satellite to Honda headquarters at each and every race, real time as the race progress. Aerodynamics of the cars, computer sequenced gear shifting, computer sequenced engine control and gear shifting from standing start (both outlawed in formula racing), active anti lock control, active traction control are all far more advanced than anything GM or Chrysler can do or know how to do. The carbon-carbon braking system technology is beyond the means for GM and Chrysler. BMW, Ferrai, McLaren, ... all have years of experience with it. The pads and the rotors of these brake run just fine at 800-1000F. They are so hot they glow with bright orange color.

Oh Audi is also heavily involved too. The classification of their race cars keeps changing Proto 1 and 2... the cars you see in LeMans 24 hour race. yeahhhh those cars can hit over 240MPH. Jaguar XJ220 AVERAGED 208MPH speed at a race track in Belgium (failed to meet the 220MPH design goal) . And that was a "production" car you could buy for cool $1USD million. And yes you can drive that car legally on American street up to 3000 miles per year. DOT limit on super cars (other restictions apply).

And why can't GM and Chrysler do this. Is it the failure of the workers? no. Failure is complacency on the management and failure to recognize the technological advancement being made on the cars and FACTORY OPERATION. Even a simple concept as "just in time production". They simply did not keep up. The upper management should all be replaced!! And the corporate culture NEEDS A MAJOR OVERHAUL. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR COMPETITION OR BE SO D&^% DISMISSIVE!!

Sorry for being long winded. It just irks me to no end to simply blame the hourly workers. They do what they are told and do it well. Buf if the marching order is well...

[Mr. Bloom]

That is NOT ALL THE PROBLEM. Don't blame wholely on the hourly workers!

You're right and I was wrong to imply that in my forceful response.

[ilima]

It's been suggested that the US's domination of the auto market for many decades from the 1950s onward was largely the product of the manufacturing abilities of Japan and Germany being decimated by WWII.

My parents bought their first Japanese car (a Toyota Corolla) in 1980. It had front wheel drive, which was good for driving in the snow, and it got good gas mileage because it was small. These were two things you just couldn't get in a US-made automobile at the time.

You are right, smilingcat, that the problems with Detroit start at the top, not at the bottom with the workers. I don't think it's wrong for people to expect decent wages and benefits for an honest day's work. When I was growing up a blue-collar worker could buy a house in a good school district and provide a nice but not extravagant lifestyle for his family. That's the way it should be and we shouldn't be hatin' on Detroit autoworkers for expecting that.

[andtckrtoo]

I've long been a BUY AMERICAN enthusiast for cars. I've had GMC's, Jeeps, Dodge's, Chrysler... (I love cars). Our daughter went to college and wanted a Honda Accord (used, of course). The car had 56k miles on it, she's driven it for 2 years now (it has 75k on it - and those were not easy miles - she's 20) and it is still going strong. We never have to worry about her breaking down somewhere because it's a Honda.

A few years before DD got the Honda, we bought a new 2004 GMC Envoy. By the time we had 40k miles on it, we had to replace the gas gauge (and yes, we did run out of gas on a late Friday night because of the faulty gauge - not a fun night), a power window, a transmission, and the brakes - and 2 batteries.

We now have a used Lexus RX350 (DH's car - he likes SUV's - but this one gets better gas mileage than the Envoy ever did), and a used Honda Accord Hybrid (which is more of a sports car than a true Hybrid, but I still get better gas mileage and I have a ton of power!). I don't have to buy new because I know the car will still last no matter how it was driven. So I get more car for the same price and it lasts longer.

It will take me A LOT to go back to an American car.

Forget the worker's salaries. The reason the Big 3 are doing so poorly is because their cars are not quality. When I can have a car with 100k miles (a friend finally traded her Subaru when it had 250,000 HARD miles on it - she climbs 14,000 foot mountains and that car took her up a lot of those - she hated to do it because it still ran well, but she decided it was time) on it that is still going strong and is very reliable, why would I buy a car that will fall apart before it hits 40k miles?

[shootingstar]

While I think that thousands of autoworkers losing their jobs is awful, I can't pretend I'm shocked about any of this.

We all have the ability to make choices in our lives: how and where to live and what to do for a living, and how we get around.

I have lived car-free for nearly 20 years. I have watched the high cost of driving continue to be subsidized (and therefore largely camouflaged) by government. Instead I would prefer that the government began subsidizing mass transit, mixed-income housing and job re-training, smart-growth and urban density, and smaller, more localized economies of scale for everyone.

Howdy, it's 29 years car-free for myself so far. I was starting to feel like the car-free existentialist elder in a forest of cyclists-car drivers.

Canada is helping GM with the bail-out..supposedly to assist in their pension. Whatever. It's alot of taxpayers' moolah $.

Will be interesting to see if these big car manufacturers will be able to reinvent themselves to a completely new type of car. Meanwhile there have been recent documentary TV news footage on glimmerings of the electric car start-ups...but that needs a very different infrastructure to power up for some of our long North American driving distances.

[Tuckervill]

The car had 56k miles on it, she's driven it for 2 years now (it has 75k on it - and those were not easy miles - she's 20) and it is still going strong.

That's nuthin'. Especially for a Honda. I have a '07 Honda Element with 76k miles on it already.

When we buy trucks, we buy Fords. Everything else has been Toyota or Honda. I will never buy a GM, Chrysler or Ford car. I just like the intuitive nature of the design of the Hondas.

I think it's interesting that Ford is not in the news like GM and Chrysler are. What are they doing right?

Karen

[Irulan]

I think it's interesting that Ford is not in the news like GM and Chrysler are. What are they doing right?

Karen

They have cash reserves for starters, and the Fusion is doing very well esp. in Europe. There is more, but that is all my pea brain can remember at the moment.