Grumpy Grammar Grinch Grouses...

[pinkbikes]

"Every parent who left a message received a call back from myself". Shouldn't school officials have a grasp of proper English? Misuse of "myself" is one of my pet peeves. That and the apostrophes on every plural word (by the way, Crankin, I think you meant "doesn't", not "does" ).

Thank heavens there is another human in the world who cares about the improper use of the reflexive pronoun! I thought I was the only one!

Do they use it because they think it sounds nicer and less egotistical than good old "me"??? It is so common and so insidious that the other day I had to stop myself before I used it too!

They call me "the apostrophe Nazi" at work for my efforts to ensure anything that goes out under my signature (with an apostrophe) is correct.

[Crankin]

Yea, the "does" was simply a typo.
While I really know that spelling ability has nothing to do with intelligence, it still bothers me to see misspelled words in print. I know there are varying opinions as to how necessary correct spelling is on a forum like this, but the same errors over and over get to me. I am pretty sure many would tell me to chill out, and that it doesn't matter.
As far as the speech patterns go, many of them are regional. It would be sad to lose some of the words that are unique to different parts of the country. It's already happened around Boston. Words like tonic (soda), barrel (garbage can), and bubbler (water fountain) are only heard in certain towns, usually places where many generations of families have lived without any in-out migration. You only hear the "Boston accent" in the old mill cities, certain towns, or in older people. I know that I purposely lost mine very quickly when I moved away in high school.
However, things like "I seen" and "he don't" or "your" for "you're" are just bad grammar/spelling!

[redrhodie]

I'm a right brain type, so I hope you all give me a break when I screw up. I have other strengths.

I confess to having issues with its and it's, affect and effect, and even left and right . I can use them correctly, but it takes some effort.

But, I can draw a nude figure without looking at the paper.

[OakLeaf]

However, things like "I seen" and "he don't" ... are just bad grammar

Actually, I think it's more casual vs. formal than "good vs. bad." In many social situations, saying "I saw" or "he doesn't" is like wearing black tie to a football game. Cambridge is different from Appalachia on that score, I'm sure. But my opinion is when in Rome, speak Latin. (Or Italian, depending on what millennium that saying came from. )

I use both of those constructions frequently in conversation; never in formal situations and rarely in writing. And I'm the one who just went back and edited to make sure that the period was on the correct side of the quotation marks.

[Veronica]

However, things like "I seen" and "he don't" or ... are just bad grammar/spelling!

Not necessarily...

I've been taking a class that talks about African American English and often what we hear as poor grammar is actually a linguistic dialectic and has real meaning.

When someone says, "He been bugging me." It's not poor grammar; it means the person has been bugging them repeatedly. "I seen" means the person has seen it often. "He don't never..." the repeated negative is for emphasis.

It's been really interesting. AND, it's helped me understand my students a little bit better. The trick is getting the kids to understand when they need to use standard English.

Veronica

[Biciclista]

Thank heavens there is another human in the world who cares about the improper use of the reflexive pronoun! I thought I was the only one!

Do they use it because they think it sounds nicer and less egotistical than good old "me"??? It is so common and so insidious that the other day I had to stop myself before I used it too!

They call me "the apostrophe Nazi" at work for my efforts to ensure anything that goes out under my signature (with an apostrophe) is correct.

You are not alone!
We were at the Opera the other day and they have a big marquis where you can read what they are singing while they are singing. I could not resist letting my husband know the two times they made typos.

Yes Veronica, good points. They need to be conversant in both the mainstream dialect and their own.

[Crankin]

I guess I meant that those constructions are bad grammar for standard English. Believe me, I am not one of those "English only" types. But, I have had a problem getting kids to understand that it is necessary to speak standard English in business and school situations.
The "I seen" and "he don't" are much more prevalent in other parts of the country, even among well educated speakers. If someone spoke like that here, even in a social situation, it would not be seen as something positive. Yea, we are language snobs here, so don't start yelling! When I was first married, my husband used both of those expressions, because that's what his parents used. When he was getting ready to go back to finish his BA, I explained to him that he probably shouldn't use certain language forms at the university. He just never thought about it, as it was all he had ever heard.
Actually, I find regionalisms and dialects quite interesting to learn about.

[Veronica]

Oh, I'm a total language snob. 4 years of Latin in high school, 4 more in college and 3 years of Classical Greek.

I think it's all about situational approriateness. Our society as a whole has become less aware of what's approriate or the lines are getting blurred and language is just a side effect of that. There are some things about Miss Manners I miss.

Veronica

[PamNY]

The "I seen" and "he don't" are much more prevalent in other parts of the country, even among well educated speakers. If someone spoke like that here, even in a social situation, it would not be seen as something positive. Yea, we are language snobs here, so don't start yelling!

"I seen" and "he don't" are not acceptable among educated speakers in any part of the country. When I moved to the northeastern U.S. from the south, I did notice that some people believed that, and I really had to bite my tongue to stop myself from pointing out their grammatical errors.

In written communication, the people I worked with in the northeast were actually worse than southerners, but that might be a function of the corporate structure. I did notice that people in the northeast simply would not believe that there are rules about use of language. One person told me that she didn't want to use hyphenated modifiers because "it looks funny."

Pam

[Veronica]

"I seen" and "he don't" are not acceptable among educated speakers in any part of the country.

Pam

Not afraid to speak your mind I see.

I believe there is a time and a place for everything - even bad grammar.

Veronica

[tulip]

I haven't read through all of the posts, so I apologize if this one has been discussed already.

LESS and FEWER. Get it right, people!

Ah, that's better.

[Eden]

Now, I don't view this as an excuse to not learn the proper grammar of the day, but just remember that language is not static. It is ever evolving and that the rules that were used just a generation or two ago may not apply in this day and age. Someday everyone may properly use words or forms that in this time seem to be slang or poor grammar and today's rules may seem impossibly stiff and formal.... (my husband's great aunt was a school teacher and her grammar book still had all the rules and conjugations for thee and thou)

[PamNY]

I believe there is a time and a place for everything - even bad grammar.

Seriously? Outside of fiction? I'm not arguing; just curious. I do think bad grammar can be used for emphasis in a joking way -- I can't think of an example that would work in writing, but we did it a lot in my family. In fact, this thread has reminded me that I should write down a few of the things we laughed about in my family so I don't forget them.

Pam

[Pedal Wench]

Seriously? Outside of fiction? I'm not arguing; just curious. I do think bad grammar can be used for emphasis in a joking way -- I can't think of an example that would work in writing, but we did it a lot in my family. In fact, this thread has reminded me that I should write down a few of the things we laughed about in my family so I don't forget them.

Pam

I write a column (online, for the SciFi Channel) and I regularly use sentence fragments and words such as "ain't" and "I dunno." It's conversational and I think allowed in that context.

[Veronica]

Seriously? Outside of fiction?

Bad grammar in conversation often comes from the home. When you criticize a child's language, you're criticizing their homelife and maybe even their culture.

Often they are following certain grammatical rules. They are not standard English grammatical rules, but they are rules.

Veronica