Feminists? Any here?

[lph]

Another pet peeve: the focus on women's appearance, and our own touchiness about it.

My son got into a minor fight the other day at school, some girl pushed him, they bickered, and he had called her "Fatso". She was crushed. When asked about this at home he was a little sullen but surprised, because "mom, she's really slender". It was just a stray insult in a stupid argument.

So why is it that the worst, most insulting thing you can say to a girl, is that she's fat, or ugly? It's not a nice thing to say to a boy either, but there I think the equivalent worst insult would be "weak", or "cowardly". Girls get judged and judge themselves a lot from outer appearances, boys judge themselves more by skills and personality.

This is children, but I think this applies to adults as well. Honestly - would you be more insulted if someone called you fat, or if they called you a weakling? But when you think about it, wouldn't you rather BE strong and brave, instead of pretty and thin?

I think it's a shame that it's such a huge faux pas to ask a woman if she's expecting, and find out she wasn't pregnant at all. If she's put on that much weight, it can hardly be a surprise to her that it's visible to others. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could say to a friend "gee, you've got a little chunky, better lay off those chocolate chip cookies for a while" and laugh at it, and just let it go?

[Crankin]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

[OakLeaf]

Crankin, I understand that on a general level (although I haven't read anything specific and that does sound interesting). My point was that the "male equivalent of a feminist" is a male feminist. Which entails all the understandings about gender identity (male, female and trans) that others have posted in this thread. It's unfortunate that some people are still stuck in a 1972 backlash stereotype of what it means to be a feminist.

And while I understand that it can be helpful to use a different word when the word "feminist" is loaded with backlash connotations in some circles, there's also a point to refusing to let our language be defined by those who oppose us.

[Crankin]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.
I understand the opinions of all of the posters, but at this point, I think I have a bit of "language fatigue."
My classes are over for the year and I think I need a break from "The People's Republic of Cambridge..." But not a break from meeting my friends for drinks on Thursday.

[crazycanuck]

I need to say a few things about gender equality esp in Australia. This is mainly regarding Aboriginal Australians that live in very isolated places or in just plain isolated communities round the country.

I've never ever seen a male or female Aboriginal on a bike & if we do, it's normally not thier bike... Footy(aussie rules footy) however is widely promoted to these folks though. Why? Quite a few aboriginal players in footy & are able to identify with the awful living conditions & struggles in the isolated communities. Easier to play & every town or community has a footy oval of some sort.

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

[shootingstar]

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

But no doubt there are some Australian aboriginal women from those isolated communities, who are not self-abusive, who have surived and live their lives quietly. And not reported by the media.

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

On this last point that Crankin outlined, this might be what frustrates/infuriates some non-whites or some women, when others march around and say "people are people" and just put an end to any exploratory discussion. I am more willing to believe alot more the male nurse, stay-at-home daddy, etc. of how he is viewed as tied to traditionally female role, and what needs to be done by him, to counteract negative attitudes that are sexist, etc.

A person has to live for several years, every day , in a role/with an identity where the dominant, overriding societal attitude might disempower the value of that role to other more powerful, socially acceptable roles OR stereotype that person.

By the way, I perceive this cycling community, as generally, privileged despite our lowly (or cheaper than car) bikes and whatever difficult childhoods some of us may have: we are highly literate enough to express ourselves well here in the Internet (and many members here seem to have education beyond high school), and we can do it in the powerful worldwide language of English which is the de facto language of power in business, international politics, scientific communication worldwide etc. That is actually ALOT of power.

[Zen]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.

That just makes me think "male nurse".
It's just nurse. And it's just feminist.

[shootingstar]

Very true, Zen.

Which is why we now have firefighter, police officer.. The change is language to more gender neutrality must be credited to the feminist pioneers who were boomers, the language war was waged over 20 yrs. ago. Now it's becoming a fabric of language.

Like Ms.

[Tuckervill]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

You can find quiz for that online. Here's one: http://majorsmatter.net/race/WhiteIdentity.htm

Karen

[Tuckervill]

A person has to live for several years, every day , in a role/with an identity where the dominant, overriding societal attitude might disempower the value of that role to other more powerful, socially acceptable roles OR stereotype that person.

A good first step is just to realize it is possible that the view you hold of race as a white person could change if you got to experience life through someone else's eyes. (30 days is a great tool for that.) I often encounter this inability to empathize or to consider that someone else could see things differently when it comes to race/gender, etc. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I stated it is 99% men who I encounter with this inability to empathize.

Karen

[Biciclista]

great quiz Karen.
I haven't said much here because I was a part of the "bra burning" feminist movement and then saw how badly it backfired on us.
My grandmothers both worked hard to support their families during the depression when often my grandfathers couldn't get work. My grandfathers when they did work, earned more. My father and my mother were latchkey kids, as was I. Same thing, next generation. My mother made much less than my father, and as a single mom (they divorced when i was 6) she barely made ends meet even with my father's absolutely dependable child support checks ( $25 a week for 2 kids, went up to $35 eventually).
then it was me and my generation. In the guidance counselor's office, I was told: you can be a nurse or a teacher or a secretary; which career track appeals to you?
None of them appealed to me although i did apply to a nursing school and got turned down because i had the "wrong" personality.
In college, I discovered all sorts of wonderful things, and the absence of a dress code. I lost my panty hose forever. I was not a good student unfortunately so did not have an opportunity to blaze trails for others to follow by getting involved with Genetics or Animal sciences.
Instead I had to get a job. And the jobs available to me were clerical and retail and paid pretty badly.
So how did we do?
We no longer had to dress up in ridiculous shoes and dresses to work, go to school, or out to play.
We could get legal abortions.
We didn't have to be quiet when men were abusive towards us in the workplace (but more than likely nothing would be done about it anyway)
We still couldn't get good salaries.

ok, so fast forward to today:
We're fighting to keep those legal abortions.
We can pretty much dress the way we want anywhere.
More girls than boys are in college and graduating from it; but there are no jobs.
There is a big movement of "stay at home moms" many of us wish we could afford that very thing that was considered normal, even though in my own family for 3 generations it never did happen.
Men working in women's jobs STILL tend to make more $$ than women.
Women CAN get jobs in men's fields, but they still get hassled and abused, even in white collar jobs like flying commercial airlines.
I really lucked out, I work for a large corporation who bends over backwards trying to be fair. And to me, they certainly have been; i'm well compensated for my work. But i know that i am the exception, not the rule.
I guess I'm not a feminist anymore, although I am incredibly proud of the women who fought for our right to vote, to receive fair wages, and to be considered equal in the eyes of the law to men. But bottom line, (and as the mother of two sons); I believe in equal rights for all of humanity, and even more equal rights for our neighbors, the animal kingdom and the plant kingdom. Thanks for listening.

[Zen]

I guess I'm not a feminist anymore, ...

oh but I think you are.
As time progresses, society changes and the way we make our voices heard also changes.

The 60's and early 70's were revolutionary times. The civil rights movement, the resurgence of the womens rights movement and Vietnam war protests were all in the streets at the same time. We do our protesting and organizing via pixels, zeroes and ones now and I think we have a greater voice than ever. I bet you're using that voice.