Feminists? Any here?

[lph]

Well, speaking for myself I truly am more interested in rethinking and reinventing roles for both genders than I am in focussing on just women. No offense at all to those who are staunch feminists, and yes, I know full well that much of my freedom to do this was bought by diehard radical feminists, and I deeply appreciate that.

But I feel it's too one-sided to focus just on giving women more options and raising consciousness around their roles, especially when it comes to family, if men don't change their roles. Both for their own sake - after all they're half the population too ya know , but also for our sakes. It seems a lot more constructive to me to make this a joint effort to encourage/nudge/challenge both men and women into rethinking their options and making freer choices. And I am not comfortable calling this just "feminism".

Besides, rallying on one side does have a nasty way of creating battle lines that don't have to be there.

One of my pet peeves. A girl acting boyish is called a tomboy and is "cool". Lots of bonus points for getting her hands dirty and being macho. A boy acting girlish is a figure of ridicule. Classic feminine behaviour is accepted in a girl, but is still less acceptable in total than classic masculine behaviour, which has higher status.

eta: the OP asked who would call themselves "feminists", and from that the discussion evolved via those who wouldn't (and why) as much as those who would. So I don't agree that this discussion was "only" women and womens issues.

[ilima]

A boy acting girlish is a figure of ridicule. Classic feminine behaviour is accepted in a girl, but is still less acceptable in total than classic masculine behaviour, which has higher status.

In response to an article about gay marriage (I think), a gay man wrote a comment that he had been encouraged by a woman to fight misogyny instead of just focusing on gay issues. She argued to him that, at its core, discrimination against (stereotypically acting) gay men was a form of/dervied from misogyny.

As to the rest of your post, I totally agree that if you are striving for 'equality' for women you must include men in the equation. The expectation of husband as major breadwinner needs to be relaxed. Men shouldn't be stigmatized in the workplace for staying home with a sick kid, picking the kids up from school, etc. And every family needs to be able to figure out the balance on their own.

[OakLeaf]

I wonder what is the "White equivalent" of wanting African-American people to have equal rights?

[Pax]

Focusing solely on women for one brief thread on a web forum doesn't have to constitute the creation of a battle line. It simply means we had a discussion about women, by women. We don't have to feel bad or that we've excluded others or think it means we're not for equality. If we can't first ground ourselves in who we are and what our needs are then we approach the other half of the population lacking clear insight, again (as is so often the case) looking to their needs and responses first.

[Mr. Bloom]

In my view, feminism has always been not so much about promoting one gender, but rather about reducing discrimination and constraints imposed by gender. Basically the idea that rights should be based on being human, not on being a man or a woman.

Amen!

Now, I'm going for a ride!

[Tuckervill]

I work at a community college and we have lots of programs for "displaced homemakers" and every year they are full and have waiting lists. They are for programs in health care, business, child care, hospitality, and pretty much any program that offers job training and a career ladder to allow someone to get into the workforce and be able to support her family. The stories from these women are heartwrenching. Most never had any education after high school and little, if any, experience working before getting married and having children. Most are young--women who had children at 17 and 18 and 19 years old and are now 22 or 23 or 25 and divorced and unable to support themselves or their children. Many, many, many of them were in abusive relationships where suggesting that getting an education or a job would have been met with violence. Maybe they didn't pay attention, or were in denial, or were so abused that they couldn't think, or maybe they thought, just as most people thing, that the worst would never happen to them. Unimaginative? Sure. But it's a pretty common affliction (also seen in workers who are shocked when they lose their jobs and haven't updated their resumes in 15 years and in recent college grads who are convinced that they will be the one to beat the odds and find a great job in this economy).

The programs themselves are no different than the programs for the general population, but the "displaced homemaker" programs have more supports--scholarships, child care support, mentoring, interview skills, professional skills, etc.

Sarah

Those commercials were targeted towards, and portrayed, older women with older children.

Does your program actually use that term, "displaced homemaker"? I would find that creepy. Our local CC has programs for people who need those things, but they're not targeted at any particular segment or situation. They're available for whomever needs them.

Karen

[lph]

Another pet peeve: the focus on women's appearance, and our own touchiness about it.

My son got into a minor fight the other day at school, some girl pushed him, they bickered, and he had called her "Fatso". She was crushed. When asked about this at home he was a little sullen but surprised, because "mom, she's really slender". It was just a stray insult in a stupid argument.

So why is it that the worst, most insulting thing you can say to a girl, is that she's fat, or ugly? It's not a nice thing to say to a boy either, but there I think the equivalent worst insult would be "weak", or "cowardly". Girls get judged and judge themselves a lot from outer appearances, boys judge themselves more by skills and personality.

This is children, but I think this applies to adults as well. Honestly - would you be more insulted if someone called you fat, or if they called you a weakling? But when you think about it, wouldn't you rather BE strong and brave, instead of pretty and thin?

I think it's a shame that it's such a huge faux pas to ask a woman if she's expecting, and find out she wasn't pregnant at all. If she's put on that much weight, it can hardly be a surprise to her that it's visible to others. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could say to a friend "gee, you've got a little chunky, better lay off those chocolate chip cookies for a while" and laugh at it, and just let it go?

[Crankin]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

[OakLeaf]

Crankin, I understand that on a general level (although I haven't read anything specific and that does sound interesting). My point was that the "male equivalent of a feminist" is a male feminist. Which entails all the understandings about gender identity (male, female and trans) that others have posted in this thread. It's unfortunate that some people are still stuck in a 1972 backlash stereotype of what it means to be a feminist.

And while I understand that it can be helpful to use a different word when the word "feminist" is loaded with backlash connotations in some circles, there's also a point to refusing to let our language be defined by those who oppose us.

[Crankin]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.
I understand the opinions of all of the posters, but at this point, I think I have a bit of "language fatigue."
My classes are over for the year and I think I need a break from "The People's Republic of Cambridge..." But not a break from meeting my friends for drinks on Thursday.

[crazycanuck]

I need to say a few things about gender equality esp in Australia. This is mainly regarding Aboriginal Australians that live in very isolated places or in just plain isolated communities round the country.

I've never ever seen a male or female Aboriginal on a bike & if we do, it's normally not thier bike... Footy(aussie rules footy) however is widely promoted to these folks though. Why? Quite a few aboriginal players in footy & are able to identify with the awful living conditions & struggles in the isolated communities. Easier to play & every town or community has a footy oval of some sort.

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

[shootingstar]

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

But no doubt there are some Australian aboriginal women from those isolated communities, who are not self-abusive, who have surived and live their lives quietly. And not reported by the media.

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

On this last point that Crankin outlined, this might be what frustrates/infuriates some non-whites or some women, when others march around and say "people are people" and just put an end to any exploratory discussion. I am more willing to believe alot more the male nurse, stay-at-home daddy, etc. of how he is viewed as tied to traditionally female role, and what needs to be done by him, to counteract negative attitudes that are sexist, etc.

A person has to live for several years, every day , in a role/with an identity where the dominant, overriding societal attitude might disempower the value of that role to other more powerful, socially acceptable roles OR stereotype that person.

By the way, I perceive this cycling community, as generally, privileged despite our lowly (or cheaper than car) bikes and whatever difficult childhoods some of us may have: we are highly literate enough to express ourselves well here in the Internet (and many members here seem to have education beyond high school), and we can do it in the powerful worldwide language of English which is the de facto language of power in business, international politics, scientific communication worldwide etc. That is actually ALOT of power.

[Zen]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.

That just makes me think "male nurse".
It's just nurse. And it's just feminist.

[shootingstar]

Very true, Zen.

Which is why we now have firefighter, police officer.. The change is language to more gender neutrality must be credited to the feminist pioneers who were boomers, the language war was waged over 20 yrs. ago. Now it's becoming a fabric of language.

Like Ms.

[Tuckervill]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

You can find quiz for that online. Here's one: http://majorsmatter.net/race/WhiteIdentity.htm

Karen