Dealing with unemployment - anyone else?

[papaver]

Yep, ZenSojourner is our TE philospher.

[papaver]

I hope some of you all who are being so hard on Ivona take a minute to remember just how confusing it was to learn that everything you knew was wrong. We all go through that, don't we? Is there any one of us over 45 who really believed we - or any other human being - would live to see the year 2000?

Oh yes, I was always on a mission, had dreams I wanted to come true. And I worked hard so they did. I worked my *ss of. Seriously. I always dreamed of working in the theatre, well I did that (I even starten my own theatre company at age 24), then I wanted to work in the fashion industry, did that too. I started as someone who had to iron the new shirts and I worked my way up to the design department in two years time. Then I was ready for my next challenge: advertising. At age 29 I was already an international award winning copywriter.

There's nothing wrong with having dreams (that most people would think of as impossible), but there's something wrong with running away from responsabilities. I didn't ran away when things were tough, on the contrary. It kept me motivated.

[indigoiis]

I am reading Julia Child's biography. After Smith College, she went to NYC and then she bummed around her home town of Pasadena after her mom died, basically partying until she was 31. Then she went to DC and took a job as a clerk with the OSS (now CIA). She had two serious marriage offers - one by a man who later made a fortune with a big publishing company. Imagine how different our world would be today had Julia married that guy instead of Paul Child. We might never have gotten "The Way to Cook."

I know my path was pretty fequirky. But at 25 I was married (To the first Mr. Indy) with a brand new baby. That grows you some quick.

[shootingstar]

I might have the same bk. as you indigois by Child.

She married a government diplomat..or at least a well-paid government employee that promoted the U.S. culture overseas and that time in Europe, just after the war. Fortunately they stationed themselves in France where Julia was able to discover her love of French cuisine and learn its art of cooking. Had her hubby was stationed in Germany just the war, her fabled life wouldn't have been great, since Germany was rebuilding itself and under the oversight of the U.S.

There are still many women who are still looking subconsciously for a life partner with an healthy salary to bail them out or at least support them.

However...I'm seeing the reverse now on a totally different forum for women in their boomer years and up: women who have earned and acquired their own property assets and savings (or they have inherited as an only child) but they are now extremely careful when assessing the next guy in their life who will not fritter away their savings irresponsibly, ..so they will not be left homeless and without means to provide for themselves/herself later on in life when they/herself will need help in many ways...which will require money. Making decisions long-term for the latter, does demand self-discipline.

Frankly I'm sincerely surprised by some of the advice on staying to get a graduate degree/more education when a person already has a sizable debt to pay off. And I've never understood much how many college/university students with a large debt can still go off vacationing in Europe/Asia or go vacationing in the Carribbean, etc. during spring break. My very first trip outside of Canada (to Greece) was 4 years after I finished university and had accumulated enough savings from jobs. However prior to that, I didn't feel totally deficient of a different cultural perpsective/feeling like a hillbilly...it does help to grow up in bicultural/bilingual family environment.


If Ivona doesn't care about our opinion, that's ok. But I feel for her mother...and with Mother's Day coming up....this is the one woman who has sacrificed for Ivona from babyhood up.

As an aunt, even at my highest earning power in the past, I couldn't have given such a gift of that value (that Ivona's aunt offered) to any niece or nephew. If that's going to happen, it'll be after I'm long gone.

[PamNY]

If Ivona doesn't care about our opinion, that's ok. But I feel for her mother...and with Mother's Day coming up....this is the one woman who has sacrificed for Ivona from babyhood up.

What! You "feel for her mother"? Why? Do you know either of them IRL? Do you know anything about their relationship? And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

[sfa]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow. I wish I had some of the wisdom of some of the other posters! And you've gotten a lot of very good advice.

But I'm going to add my own two cents to the mix because I've BTDT with debt and unemployment, and also BTDT with traveling for a year after college. Like you, I had things set up to make that traveling do-able financially. In my case I had a grant to pursue a self-designed project for a year, and the only stipulation was that we get the heck out of the U.S. for the year. But I don't think I would have taken that grant and left if it meant screwing up my future. And in your case, while you can defer payments on student loans and eliminate most regular bills by not having phone/electric/water/rent, you can't, unfortunately, walk away from credit card debt without serious long-term repurcussions. If you ever want to get a job in the future, if you ever want to rent an apartment in your future, if you ever want to go back to school and will need another student loan to do that, if you ever want to take out a small business loan to start your own company--you need a decent credit history. Three months of non-payment isn't fatal, but it's getting there. Any more and it'll be very hard to turn around. Years from now it'll show up on your credit history and employers will hesitate to hire you, banks won't loan you money, landlords will charge you an arm and a leg for security deposits (if they'll rent to you at all). It's just not worth it.

Before you leave to travel, you need to figure out some way to get caught up with those payments and to have enough saved up to continue making the minimum payments each month while you're gone. If that means moving back in with your parents and babysitting or mowing lawns to save up the minimum payments, so be it. I'm thinking Oakland probably isn't the best place to be--you're in a place with a seriously high cost of living and competing with a lot of other highly educated and experienced people for very few jobs. Go someplace cheaper, and preferably some place with a lower unemployment rate. California has the 4th highest unemployment rate in the nation at over 11%. It may be even higher in your city. But if you go to someplace like Nebraska or North Dakota, not only do you get a lower cost of living, but you have a much better chance of finding a job (both states have unemployment rates around 4%. And these aren't the only places--there are a number of states with unemployment rates that are significantly below the national average). While you're working your unfun job to pay the bills, you can do other things that are more interesting or at least more relevant. Wedding season is starting--go to every dress shop in town and offer your services for making alterations (and that would probably pay. While you're at it, advertise those same services on Craigslist and on a flyer in the supermarket). Volunteer in the costume department of a summer theater. Sure, you might just be putting together costumes for yet another production of Music Man, but it's something you can put on your resume, which doesn't suck.

Next thing--don't get frustrated. You've only been looking for work for a short while. In a good economy, it'll often take many months to find a job. In this economy, nine months or more seems to be about average. Everyone I know who has lost a job in the past year was out of work for at least that long before finding something. It sucks, but that's the way it is right now. Travel and continuing education seem to be the popular choices among people who know they're at the bottom of the food chain in this market, so I think you're on the right track--just make sure you can make payments on those credit cards while you're gone.

And that brings me to my final point--an associate's degree is nice, but is really just considered a stepping stone these days. A two year degree is only really useful if the degree came with particular job training. I work at a community college and we divide our programs up into career programs and transfer programs. A career program would give specific job skills so a person could be hired directly into that field at the end of the degree or certificate program. A transfer program is really just two years of a four year degree. Fashion design would be considered a transfer program. At some point you should consider going back to college to get a bachelor's degree.

Good luck!

Sarah

[shootingstar]

And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

'course we don't know and it is not our business to know. Guess I shouldn't make the leap to Mother's Day ...when many of us already have given whatever opinions in this thread, as having experienced certain difficulties in life. We've been abit like at the very least, elder sisters (and dare I say, sounding abit like a mother??)

But each of us exists here, our very existence on Earth, happened somehow with a start.

[shootingstar]

Wedding season is starting--go to every dress shop in town and offer your services for making alterations (and that would probably pay. While you're at it, advertise those same services on Craigslist and on a flyer in the supermarket). Volunteer in the costume department of a summer theater. Sure, you might just be putting together costumes for yet another production of Music Man, but it's something you can put on your resume, which doesn't suck.

Considering the reality that sewing full garments and more complex things, like wedding dresses/bridesmaids and going-away dress, is becoming a lost skill, there should be more biz..but it's a matter of cracking into the social chick networks too..women/potential customers who have totally different lifestyles and dress styles.

[PamNY]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow. I wish I had some of the wisdom of some of the other posters! And you've gotten a lot of very good advice.

Sarah:

Your post contains the best advice in this thread.

Pam

[IvonaDestroi]

Let me just add a footnote to what crazycanuck has said.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's hypocrisy.

Selling out isn't about conforming a bit on the outside so you can keep body and soul together and, more important, PAY THE PEOPLE YOU OWE.

Selling out is about lying, cheating, and stealing. It's about lack of integrity. It's about selfishness.

Is your sense of self and integrity is so shallow and poorly rooted that it can be damaged by moderating your appearance so you can get a job and pay your bills? It's a shame if so.

If you want to talk about ethics, then don't try to paint the fact that you are running out on debts you ran up in good faith as if it's a great adventure of self-expression and "being true" to some higher good.

When you borrow money and then don't make a good-faith effort to pay it off, that's stealing. That's lying, because you are going back on the agreement you made when you borrowed the money. That's a lack of integrity, because you are willfully breaking the promises you made. That's selfish, because you're taking off to play when what is needed is to work and pay back the people you owe.

I think credit card companies are one of the greatest evils on the face of the planet, and I haven't had a credit card in 20 years. But the truth is that you took out those "high interest credit cards", no one forced you to take them and, more to the point, USE them. You took out those student loans, there was no corporate enforcer standing with a gun to your head forcing you to do so.

If this conversation has become about "hair color", it's because you have made it THE issue. Not us. You're the one who thinks that changing the color of your hair is somehow going to soil and dirty your soul.

In a sense, you're right. You're hair color really DOESN'T matter, in the greater scheme of things. And SINCE it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter if you change it so you can get a job and pay your bills.

It all sounds very high-minded. But in the end it's an excuse to run out on your responsibilities. Because you are too inflexible and rigid to even consider moderating your appearance - which is, after all, even LESS than skin deep, being that it's ALL surface stuff - you are unlikely to get a job to pay the bills you ran up. Running off to Europe isn't going to change any of the societal ills you are complaining about, or do a thing to pay off any of your bills. Flying on the plane means you are partaking of the evils you blame on McDonald's and Starbucks; riding trains on your "Euro youth pass", hitching rides, you're partaking of the benefits of the society you decry; even eating food that you didn't grow yourself means you are benefiting from the evil, evil, horrible society you think the world has only recently become.

What was that? What's the definition of hypocrisy?

You don't fight evil by running away. You fight evil by starting with the small evils that we meet in every day life. You fight evil by not lying; by not cheating; by not stealing; by living up to the responsibilities you took on, by keeping your promises. Even when it's hard. Even when, horror of horrors! - it means wearing clothes you don't like.

It's not about not drinking Starbucks Coffee. It's not about not eating at McDonalds. It's not about, thank god, eating out of dumpsters from some warped sense of moral superiority.

You fight evil by resisting it in your daily life.

You don't start on a global scale; you start with your self, your own life. You start by keeping your promises.

You start with the woman in the mirror.

And if that takes actual, real sacrifice, then you make that sacrifice, such as, say, by facing your responsibilities and doing whatever it takes to get a job and pay your bills instead of taking your security deposit and going gallivanting across Europe. Talk about exploitative; you want to go on safari, LOL! And one of the MOST exploitative industries on the planet is the very fashion industry you so badly want to plug yourself into.

You know, joining the peace corps not only permits you to be of service to others - REAL service, not the lip service of withholding $5 for a double chocolate mocha latte with extra foam from Starbucks - it also puts your student loans on hold, giving you some legitimate breathing space while you figure a few things out. It gives you the opportunity to right some of those evils you talk about so blithely in the abstract, only up close and personal. It would give you some badly needed experience with the real world and the people who actually HAVE to live in it. It would give you experiences that could not only lead to personal growth, but to learning and honing skills that will be useful in a wide variety of job situations. Maybe working for an organization focused on righting some of the BIG wrongs you talk about. It might serve your soul better than becoming just another fashionista, don't you think?

All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

Ok, I have no idea where on earth you got that I didn't intend to pay off my debts. The whole point of saving up for a couple months includes an amount I'd set aside for credit cards (I'm looking at like $50 - $100 a month total for credit cards, and they don't have balances that are THAT high- they're not maxed out or anything). I just havn't been able to pay them lately because of the starving student syndrome and subsequent difficulties in finding work (which i am still looking very hard for). I'm doing everything I can be doing, so don't get the impression I'm ducking out. I have every intention of paying this stuff off.

With student loans they dont even start charging you for 6 months after you graduate, so I don't have to start those payments for 5 more months, and after that they said I could easily defer further if I needed to, although at that point I should at least cover the interest payments.

Hypocrasy in politics- not getting into it. I never used the word "sell out". I don't use that word and honestly I dont really believe there is such a thing.

There are many contradictions in life. An anarchist in a capitalist society still has to survive within that capitalist society. That causes many contradictions and requires much compromise. That doesn't mean their political views and beliefs have to change. You can believe whatever you want, you have that right. I have the right to believe in different things then you do. We all have that right, so like I said, lets just agree to disagree on that for now.

You can't boycott everything, but you can at least boycott some things. I try to keep 2 major food corporations on my boycott list at all times, and they change once in a while. Right now it's starbucks and mcdonalds. Something is better then nothing, is my point. I still have to stay alive in this world you know. And I'm not saying everything in this society is bad either, or that i lie cheat and steal. In fact those kinds of actions are probably just as against my ethics as they are in yours. . I honestly have no idea where you're getting all of this from.

Maybe if you pulled that stereotype that you have of me out of your head we could have a reasonable conversation... you just seem really prejudiced as if you have some knowledge of how "my kind" of people are... I'm not most of the things that you just described, and it bothers me that you would judge me right off the bat like that.

[IvonaDestroi]

What! You "feel for her mother"? Why? Do you know either of them IRL? Do you know anything about their relationship? And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

No kidding... some people seem to be getting a little bit self righteous on here... keep in mind that you guys don't actually know me as a person. I bet if we sat down to coffee and actully had a human interaction you guys would think a lot differently. Quit being so judgmental, it's the internet for christ's sake!

[IvonaDestroi]

one more thing-

you're all under the impression that I'm not going to pay my bills ever... I do intend on paying them, and most of this hoopla seems to be over that... so I'm just clarifying yes I do intend on paying off the credit card bills ,which are not that high to begin with, and student loans as well, which I do not have to start paying for another half a year or even a full year... (i am looking for a job, remember?)

also there is no need to bring my mother into this. Come on... seriousy?

[jessica47201]

I'm the one who threw out the "selling out" phrase. I said I could have been consider a sell out, because I NEVER thought I would have ended up in the military.

I've been in for 12 years now, and it is probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, besides my husband. I might not agree with everything that my country or government does, but I love my country and I'm willing to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.

[jobob]

Good grief, you asked for advice. Sometimes advice might not be to your liking.

Many women here made a genuine effort and wrote you very well-thought out posts with lots of excellent advice. Many have been in similar situations and they shared their experiences, and the hard choices they had to make, with you.

Some of that advice had to do with considering relying on parents, if at possible, ever so briefly.

Also, you never made it clear in your OP that you had any intention of paying off those bills. That's the impression I took from your OP, anyhow.

You're right, most of us don't know you, so the advice here was somewhat generic, based on the information you had provided.

Whether you take any of the advice given to you here, or don't, is entirely up to you.

[ZenSojourner]

Ok, I have no idea where on earth you got that I didn't intend to pay off my debts.

From your very first posting:

"So here I am. My 2 very high interest credit card bills have gone unpaid for 3 months. My unemployment ran out, and can not be extended. My bank account is almost empty."

Then later:

"I have a friend that did this quite regularly to England and was deported a few times back to the U.S. (free trip home?) "

in response to the suggestion that you pay some of those bills off with your security deposit instead of kiting off to Europe:

"Europe would be paid by the deposit I get back from moving out, which is just enough for a ticket. hence the 30 day notice."

Since you don't have a job I'm curious as to where you're going to save anything up to put towards this stuff. I hope you get a job, I truly, truly do, but in your subsequent postings it seemed that you were making it very clear that you intend to leave to go "on safari" just as soon as ever you may so you can get a Youth Europass before your birthday in a few months.

If you DO intend to buckle down and pay stuff off, that's great. More power to you. Wonderful. But you keep changing what you are saying so it's a little hard to keep track of your actual intentions, especially when coupled with statements about how you may not even come back from Europe.

As for the issue of who is and isn't a sellout, don't be disingenuous. You didn't use the exact term, but every time you talk about changing your appearance in order to get a job, you make it clear that you think it that if you were to give up your pink hair, it would impinge on your integrity, and that those of us who have made such compromises have compromised more than a little surface appearance. That's the definition of being a sellout. I'm not the only one who has used the term in response to your statements, so let's drop that bit of high dudgeon right now.

As for my alleged "prejudice", LOL! Do you HAVE a "kind of people"? I have never made any statement that wasn't DIRECTLY based on what you have said on this forum, which, I might add, has changed with whichever way the wind seems to be blowing. It doesn't apply to anyone else. Only you and the words coming directly out of your mouth (or keyboard I guess I should say, LOL!)

As for not wanting to get embroiled in a "political discussion of hypocrisy", you're the one who started in with the holier-than-thou posting about the evils of society, not drinking Starbuck's coffee because they support slavery, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea where that came from but it was obviously important to you since you went on about it at some length.

However, when I'm talking about hypocrisy, it has not a thing to do with politics and everything to do with your continued insistence that appearance IS integrity (and no wonder then that you are going into the very shallow and self-focused fashion industry). You give us a long posting about how wonderful the opportunity is to go traveling, and I would agree with that - if it weren't for your previous statements about not paying your bills, not having any money to pay your bills, and using what cash in hand you're about to receive to go to Europe rather than paying your bills with it.

Throwing up strawmen and making ad hominem attacks (about us being too conservative; making condescending remarks about how we remind you of your fuddy-duddy mother who thinks you're going through a phase; calling me a bigot; etc etc etc) isn't going to change anything that's gone on here.

For example:

"well, you know, your generation probably had much more conservative attitudes then my own. For you, this type of thing is probably considered an extremity of some sort, a youthful and unrealistic phase in life that one will eventually "snap out of".

You have to understand that as time goes on, things that were previously considered exotic quickly become socially acceptable. You remind me so much of my mother, with the idea that that it's just a childish rebellious attitude to grow out of. 10 years later it's still 'just a phase'..."

Can't help it, I think it's REALLY funny that you're telling some of US what happens when time goes on, LOL! On top of that there are a lot of people involved in this discussion who, if they weren't exactly instrumental in developing the punk movement, at least grew up with it. The fact is that it IS an extreme of appearance, just as Amish dress and comportment is an extreme at the opposite end of the spectrum. One's not better than the other, nor worse either; but being extremes, there are consequences to adopting either one.

You posted looking for sympathy, and believe it or not, you got it, in spades. But you need to take at least some of the advice you've been given about how to dig yourself out of the mess you're in. You asked for it, after all. But then you blew it all off. And these women don't deserve to be blown off.

Again, if you ACTUALLY have a workable plan to pay those bills before you go, that's great. You didn't communicate that to us, quite the opposite in fact. If you've got $100 a month in credit card payments to make, and you're 3 months behind; if you're going to be gone for 5 or 6 months; we're talking on the order of $1000 for credit card payments alone. In the absence of a job, I'm wondering where that's going to come from.

I hope things work out for you, I truly do. All I can say is that they're more likely to work out if you WORK at MAKING them work out. Maybe you're doing that, but that's not what you've communicated. What you've communicated is that you're behind on your bills, you have no income, you have no job prospects, you have no interest in doing anything to increase the chance of getting a job, you're going to use the only cash in sight to run off to Europe, you don't want to wait to go because you want to get out there before your birthday so you'll still qualify for a cheap train ticket, you only need a one way ticket because you're assuming you can get deported home, but that doesn't matter that much because who knows, maybe you won't even come back to the US at all.

It's not prejudice or judgmentalism that is behind the comments you've been getting. It's your own words.