Best Bike Buying Advice, EVER!

[lunacycles]

Being on the industry side of cycling, I wanted to stay out of this thread. The bike pitch presented to Smurf sounded pretty par for the course of what I hear on the inside all of the time, unfortunately.

What I did appreciate were women "who have been there" speaking up about what felt offensive to them about that bike pitch. Perhaps it wasn't 100% respectful, but it seemed pretty decently handled by all to me, while also honest. A lot of people went out of their way to stand up for Smurf as a person while still speaking their mind about what was offensive to them, and why.

I think Smurf is young enough that she has perhaps come of age somewhat in the "post-feminist" era, so words that sting our generation don't have the same weight for hers. That is just a theory, of course.

I can tell you very clearly that sexism is alive and well on the inside of this industry, and it is often a taboo subject. Women don't complain, women are underrepresented, so nothing really changes except in really "token" ways (or if it leads to higher sales). Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have been doing this long enough to really see this as true.

I recently posted on a framebuilder subforum of a very popular road-centric forum (that is approx 98% male membership). There is no point re-hashing it here except to say that one of the highly regarded members of on the forum felt it appropriate to call me hormonal. "PMS gotcha down?" is exactly the words he chose. OK, these things happen, but what was appalling to me is that no one spoke up, no one Finally his post was removed by another moderator, but that was the end of it.

This wasn't the first time something like that happened, and it won't be the last.

So, I pretty much fall on my knees in gratitude when women speak up as a group with regard to sexism in cycling. I have nothing personal against Smurf, but it is painful to hear her only hear the words of her forum "sisters" as an attack on her personally, instead of taking them to heart. Questioning her intelligence probably didn't help keep her engaged, but still. I was sorry to see it resulted in her departure.

[lph]

I think people were trying to be supportive in a very direct way. If you ask for advice, you're going to get it here and you may not always like it.

That's true, but she wasn't asking for advice or even for comments, she was just passing on somebody elses opinion that she found amusing.

I wasn't offended so I can't say for sure, but to me some of the responses were a lot more offensively worded than the original post.

I hope you hang around Smurf, I like having you here.

[SadieKate]

I can tell you very clearly that sexism is alive and well on the inside of this industry, and it is often a taboo subject. Women don't complain, women are underrepresented, so nothing really changes except in really "token" ways (or if it leads to higher sales). Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have been doing this long enough to really see this as true.

There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

[lunacycles]

There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

We are speaking of the same forum. We both know about this builder. After one of my posts earning a virtual pile on from the boys in that club, I got lots of "off list" emails from women (and some men) giving me support. And african american readers, too. All off list. I tried speaking up for myself, as a woman, there. Not a good idea unless you want to feel very, very isolated. I am isolated enough with the career I chose!

But one woman wrote me something that helped me understand and walk away less angry: "they don't even know what they don't know." That, I am afraid, sums it up for me.

86 posts and one member leaving over what made me grin... and click away... have you nothing better to do than get offended at something like this. People are dying out there in the world. For Goodness sake.

I think issues like sexism and the fact of people dying out there in the world--especially those dying due to violence, greed and starvation--are quite connected.

Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.

Zen, I know that story. The funny thing is, that story is about the danger of holding onto views that keep us separated, that disallow compassionate action. Do you really think that applies here?

[PamNY]

by the way, I am too silly to be hot. Tokie

That line has GOT to be put on a T-shirt. Or an embroidered cushion. Or something.

[Zen]

The funny thing is, that story is about the danger of holding onto views that keep us separated, that disallow compassionate action. Do you really think that applies here?

The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.

[lunacycles]

The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.

In the zen tradition of "call and response"...I think it goes a little deeper than that.

[Pedal Wench]

Brilliant responses, Margo. Thank you for putting it in perspective.

[Selkie]

My emotional post was the result of the "friend's" comments, which obviously seemed to upset Smurf as well ("you'll never look as hot as you do now..."). Smurf has a unique outlook, which is something I appreciate. She's an interesting person and she's still making her way, as we all did in our 20s.

I admit that I can be a feminazi when I see women marginalized. I especially get upset when I see women doing it to each other, probably because I've "fought the fight" professionally. Now it seems some of us are fighting a new one: ageism plus sexism.

Quite honestly, it heartened me to see the over 40s here be vocal instead of letting some things go unsaid. How does someone know when they are being offensive unless another person(s) point it out? We all have different styles, some more direct than others. I don't think anyone intended to be mean but I didn't get the impression - based on Smurf's posts - that she really took in a lot of the advice that she sought here.

Margo, you are 100% correct.

[Triskeliongirl]

Margo, I really appreciated your remarks. I was the first to call Smurf on this, so of course I felt bad when she chose to leave us. That was not my intention at all, but once she used the 'cougar' term, it really touched something deep inside me.

Of course we are the product of the gender discrimination we faced when we were young (yeh, I remember being the only women in my college physical chemistry class, being asked by the prof why I wasn't home making babies........). But I thought todays young people were over all that. Maybe I am biased since my daughter attends Wellesley College, one of the few womens colleges left, and is even more sensitive to gender discrimination, even in its most subtle forms, than I am.

Smurf, if you are reading this please come back. Our remarks weren't meant to chase you away, just to make you a little more sensitive to how your comments made others feel.

[snapdragen]

not worth the effort.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I haven't read this whole thread, but as an over 50 person, I found the OP funny.
There was no reason to to the usual TE dogpile on smurf. I'm so tired of seeing women driven off this board. So much for being supportive.

First, I think it's good to read the whole thread in order to evaluate it. A lot of wise and thoughtful advice and personal feelings and experiences were expressed in it, and also in the sister thread that it spawned. A lot of effort went in to some of the responses...from all viewpoints.
It's been an enlightening discussion and has made a lot of us think about the issues- and important issues they are!

My personal view is this...
Some members found the original post funny. That's fine, and that's their right. But many members were offended and angered by the blatant age and sex discrimination being offered up as lighthearted humor. I found most of the responses to be well thought out, an attempt to point out why this material was not supportive towards women, but derogatory. Criticism was mostly offered in a constructive thoughtful way, not in a nasty hurtful way. I didn't see it as 'dogpiling'. Rather, it's a subject that many women feel strongly about, for one reason or another.

Sometimes people choose to leave forums when they post something that elicits a strong negative reaction from many members. That's their choice- they can stay and respectfully consider what people say and then take it or leave it, they can participate (or not) in the discussion of the issue...a discussion which eventually winds down after everyone expresses their views. Or they can announce that they are leaving. I personally don't see it as being 'driven off'. We all have the very same choices, and we all are (or should be) willing to take responsibility for what we post here. None of us expect everyone to agree with what we post here. I have had my own share of people disliking or criticizing my posts and my views here. It happens. It makes me think and consider.

Is there not room here for both views to be expressed? If someone posts something that is sexist or discriminatory and some people think it's funny but others are offended, are the offended ones supposed to just keep quiet? Is that what 'being supportive' means?

What if that fellow who wrote the remarks to Smurf in the original post had come on TE as a member and posted his bike buying 'advice' directly here himself? (I know I know, not bloody likely, but what if?...) Would we all be expected to be 'supportive' of him instead of pointing out to him what a negative attitude we think it presents?

Makes me think. Thinking is good. Sometimes I think it's good to 'keep quiet if you can't say something nice', sometimes maybe not so much.

[ny biker]

There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

Why are we keeping his name a secret? I'm sure I'm not the only person here who gets requests for advice from friends and colleagues who want to buy a bike. It's helpful to know who deserves a recommendation and who doesn't.

[salsabike]

Wait, what about all those people who were or have been offended by Smurf's posts? I guess their feelings don't count because they didn't decide to announce they were leaving. They decided to suck up their bad feelings, realized that this is the Internet and some things get lost in translation and moved on.

Veronica

I did just read this entire thread from top to bottom. I think Veronica and BSG have this pretty much right. The OP posted something she knew might offend people. Some people got offended and said so. A couple of them said it rudely; others said it without being insulting. Quite a lot of the comments were positive.

I don't think that someone deciding to leave always and automatically equates to someone being "driven off". And actually it seems that the OP has asked for, and received, quite a lot of support on this board in other threads.

I continue to think that in general TE is far better mannered than many other bike boards. Not perfect. But pretty darn good.

[Biciclista]

Yes, I agree with Salsa and Bleek.

And NY Biker, if you want to know, send a PM to any of the people discussing that frame maker. i'm sure they'll tell you in private.

Smurf, come on back. Some of our wisdom might rub off on you.
meow!