How much do looks define your self-image?

[Biciclista]

When I was a small child, for a while I was a prodigy at guessing ages. My mother would bring me into a party, or introduce me to guests and tell me to guess their ages. I could see the lines and signs of age. I used to upset some women because my guesses were very good. I thought 50 was very old.
So when I actually hit 50 myself, I could remember my childish reactions to 50 year old faces and shudder.
Sadly, i lost the ability to guess ages accurately by the time I was a teenager and now I can hardly do it at all.

[lph]

I took the day off and went xc skiing today (hooray for working for the Norwegian government ), and this thread kept rolling around in my mind.

I don't think we'll ever get away from wanting to be attractive, that's a fairly basic urge, and looks will always play some role in that no matter who stellar your personality is, but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa. Some people genuinely look younger than their years - off the top of my head I can think of Leonardo DiCaprio and Christina Ricci, they both have big eyes and "childlike" faces. My father-in-law is another, he has a full head of hair, few wrinkles and a boyish face with big eyes, and will always look younger than he is.

But most times I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by saying that someone "looks young" when what we mean is that they look good, or fit, or active.

I get told that sometimes, that I don't look like I'm almost 40. That's not really a compliment I appreciate that much, even though it's meant well. I don't look 30 or 35, I have the grey hair and the wrinkles to prove it - I look like a fit 40-year-old. I feel like saying - uh, no, this is what active 40-yr.old women look like. I have a colleague too who is a good example of this. He's extremely fit and 63 years old. He has skiied, biked and kayaked his whole life, and has an amazing body to show for it (I've seen most of it in the sauna ), and I'd be tempted to say that he doesn't look a day over 50, but that's not right. He looks like an extremely fit 63-yr.old. That is what extremely fit 63-yr.olds look like, and hurray for that!

Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy...

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

[Biciclista]

.


Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy...

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

Yeah, really. How many young women come on here freaked out that they might gain muscles in their legs and then won't bike because of it!

[jobob]

I had a low self-image when I was younger.

Nowadays it shocks me a bit when I see myself in the mirror and I think I look pretty darn good

[lph]

Mebbe you were busy changing a flat

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

This came out a little wrong. No offense to the 20-yr. olds smart enough to be on this board - I just wasn't a particularly nice, or smart, or happy one.

[jobob]

I know what you mean. Most miserable time of my life, alas. Wish I could get a do-over.

[OakLeaf]

What lph said. I could've written a lot of that, except not nearly so eloquently! (And except for the fact that I loved my muscles when I was 18, too.)

I would expand a little by saying that there's a huge difference between "looks don't matter" vs. "the type of looks that matter to me are maybe a little different from what I perceive as mattering to the mainstream media." An enormous difference.

Like a lot of you, maybe most women, much of my self-image comes from cruel, ugly things my parents and peers told me when I was a pre-adolescent. So in that way, you could say that looks don't define my self image - I feel just as fat at 122 lbs as I did at 150.

I never learned to put on makeup, and there are times (pretty infrequent) when I feel "naked" without it, but in general I don't miss it. I'm not enormously concerned about my hair, and I'm not terribly motivated to cover my grey; but six months of stupendously awful haircuts (two winters in a row) really added up to make me feel unattractive.

When I look at my chest in the mirror, I don't care that I don't see large firm b00bs. But I do care that I can make my pecs dance. The scars on my legs, well, I'd be happier not to have them, but if I catch a glimpse of defined muscles in the mirror when I'm putting on pantyhose, that does give me an ego boost. I'm okay with my cyclist's tan (white shoulders, white upper thighs, raccoon eyes), but I do feel pasty and pudgy when I have no tan at all (and I will cop to putting sunblock on my nose in a pretty futile attempt to keep it close to the same color as my cheeks at least ). I'm not shy about walking into stores in my cycling shorts. But I'd change before I went to the opera.


I read something a few years back that I just now remembered and I may not be describing this exactly right, but I know I have the gist of it. Some researchers put male and female subjects through exercise programs. All of the participants lost weight and got stronger. But if the women's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they were stronger and more muscular; if the men's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they'd lost weight. The researchers interpreted this as indicating that the non-stereotypical values mattered more to each gender; but I thought it was something else.

For me, and for most women, my self-image about my weight is immutable. I know in my heart that I am fat (and yah, I know, I'm sure years of therapy could help me with that, but honestly I have more important things to deal with in therapy ). No amount of weight loss will make me feel not-fat. Being strong and muscular, on the other hand - because it's something I received no messages about as a child - I can see the changes in my body honestly, without all the filters and "tapes." I can own the results of the work I've done and be happy about it. My guess is that it's the same for men - their idea of whether they're strong or weak is instilled as a value judgment in childhood and difficult to change, whereas they can see themselves more objectively as fat or thin.

[Biciclista]

This was just handed to me; it's a real piece of history:


Office instruction - Aero-Space Division Secretarial Standard No. 901
June 28, 1961


Personal Appearance

An attractive appearance is important and can be achieved by using intelligence in the selection and care of clothes and the use of proper makeup.

Clothing should be selected which is suitable, not only for the job itself, but the work area as well. A girl whose work requires physical effort should obviously select clothes which are both attractive and comfortable. Low-cut dresses are never appropriate and excuses such as “dates” or “hot weather” will not make them correct.

REMINDERS

1. Regardless of how attractive your clothing may be when new, they must be kept clean and well pressed. A fastidious person knows that good grooming includes cleanliness both in her person and her garments.
2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.
3. Extreme hairdos should be avoided. Gaudy flowers and ornaments are not appropriate for the office.
4. Heavy makeup attracts attention but not always admiration.


Don’t risk embarrassment to either your employer or yourself. Invariably, the girl who is most admired by her fellow employees is well groomed but tailored, and has learned the importance of being properly dressed and immaculate in her appearance. She never arrives at work with her hair in curlers and without makeup, thereby creating the impression that the effort to be “ready for her job” is just too great. She knows that good mental and physical health are important in order to be attractive.

She never uses personal appearance as a substitute for intelligence by knows that being well groomed is part of her job.

[redrhodie]

This was just handed to me; it's a real piece of history:


Office instruction - Aero-Space Division Secretarial Standard No. 901
June 28, 1961


Personal Appearance

An attractive appearance is important and can be achieved by using intelligence in the selection and care of clothes and the use of proper makeup.

Clothing should be selected which is suitable, not only for the job itself, but the work area as well. A girl whose work requires physical effort should obviously select clothes which are both attractive and comfortable. Low-cut dresses are never appropriate and excuses such as “dates” or “hot weather” will not make them correct.

REMINDERS

1. Regardless of how attractive your clothing may be when new, they must be kept clean and well pressed. A fastidious person knows that good grooming includes cleanliness both in her person and her garments.
2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.
3. Extreme hairdos should be avoided. Gaudy flowers and ornaments are not appropriate for the office.
4. Heavy makeup attracts attention but not always admiration.


Don’t risk embarrassment to either your employer or yourself. Invariably, the girl who is most admired by her fellow employees is well groomed but tailored, and has learned the importance of being properly dressed and immaculate in her appearance. She never arrives at work with her hair in curlers and without makeup, thereby creating the impression that the effort to be “ready for her job” is just too great. She knows that good mental and physical health are important in order to be attractive.

She never uses personal appearance as a substitute for intelligence by knows that being well groomed is part of her job.

Thank you Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinam. When I read things like this, I know what you did for me.

[Crankin]

I definitely agree; my idea of looking good is looking fit (I think I tried to say that before). And what lph said about looking good for one's age vs. looking younger is right on. I look good for 55. Do I look 40? I don't think so. I want to say to my friends who say they "can't do what I do" that this is what a fit 55 year looks like. Come see my cycling friends.
You know, Oakleaf, I think that I was a case of your thinking, but in reverse. I was always thin and then in my twenties, I gained about 25 pounds. I lost it and kept it off until I was in my mid forties (well I didn't gain as much). Both times, I was slow to accept the fact that I needed to do something, because I saw myself as a thin person. In fact the second time, I saw myself as a fit, thin person, even though I was barely going through the motions at the gym. The first time my husband took me out on the bike, I almost fainted. I still thought I was fit and thin until I was gasping for breath going up a teeny hill. Then I got pissed at myself and started on the right track to getting fit again.
That won't happen again.

[eclectic]

Biciclista

That is priceless! ! ! ! But I do wish they would put the low cut top rule back into play. I get tired telling the girls all day to pull up their tops - the poor HS boys even admit they don't really like it - they have no where to look.

Crankin' your story sounds like mine - even when I was ill and gained 40 lbs I still perceived myself as a thin person. I don't realize how bad I looked until I look at old photo's.

I gained weight again after a personal crisis and am now trying to get it back off. A friend told me last night I am starting to look "fit". As I am growing older I see that being valued more than being "Hot"

Just a thought
Perhaps it is a statement of the species - men are attracted to "fit" older women because they know they will be healthy enough to take care of them in their old age. But then men are attracted to young and "hot" too when they are old. probably to test there virility and reproductive rights

Luckily more older men are attracted to old and fit than young and hot or I would be in a lurch of ever finding another soulmate.

Just an interesting aside - I met a guy in his mid 50's whom I thought was rather interesting, he said when he met me he wasn't interested because I was too young for him. I am 52! (he perked up a little when he found that out)

I always thought all older men wanted young and "hot" but apparently there are some out there w/ brains and integrity who take mature and fit over young and hot.

Me on the other hand . . . . yep I will take men who are mature and fit any day over young and hot.

[Biciclista]

I'm still wondering about this one:

2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.


are we referring to garterbelts? slips? girdles?

[redrhodie]

Probably girdles. My mother told me of having one basically explode off of her, it was so taut. A nice girl never left home without one.

[GLC1968]

I'm still wondering about this one:

2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.


are we referring to garterbelts? slips? girdles?

Or, if you apply it to today: no VPL, a bra that fits and no thongs showing above the waist band.

Actually, as a former retail outlet manager, I can see how that entire dress code could easily be applied to today's standards with ease. I had plenty of women (men too, actually) that had NO idea how to dress appropriately for a business situation. In fact, when I worked for the last retail establishment before I left the industry, dress code training was a critical part of your early employment. As an employee of my store, you were a representative of the designer and were expected to dress as such. It was a constant battle. Anyway, replace 'girl' with something more gender neutral (and dump the curlers phrase), and it would still apply.

[Mr. Bloom]

but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa.

Ironically, as I was at the peak of my '08 fitness...and a few pounds lighter, I looked older due to the lines that formed in my face as the 'jowl fat' was burned off...