What a day...

[Irulan]

Seriously? You never saw a kid in school make a gun with his fingers and pretend to shoot someone?

I think what has changed is that we've grown up and it's our turn to say the same things our elders said about us.

Karen

What's changed is that there's a 50/50 chance that today's kid is really packing heat or knows where to get some and is making a real threat.

[Mr. Bloom]

V,

As I've said before:

• I do appreciate how difficult teaching is
• I do appreciate what you do
• I hate the challenges that your are having to confront

Children have changed and parenting has changed.

I do not agree with this. The demographics of your school have changed exposing you to something different, but it's the same issues as our generation in a different package. JMHO

[Crankin]

I agree with you, Mr. S. Whenever I was confronted with these challenges as a teacher (and believe me, it was frequently), I had to search myself and wonder if the values I was used to and most middle or upper middle class white people, hence teachers, have were not the same as the ones my kids/parents had. Most of the time, the answer was no. This does not mean that kids should be allowed to threaten anyone at school or disrespect teachers. But, if I dug a little deeper I would see the situation for what it was. Sometimes, all I could do was wait for the end of the year (or in my case, 2 years, because I looped with my kids), but other times, through a lot of work and help from others at my school, we made tiny inroads with the parents and/or kid.
I think it would be really hard to live through a demographic change at school. It's like the whole world changes. The last 2 places I taught were challenging because we had the kids who lived in 500k houses and also a large group of kids who were immigrants or from a minority culture. Because so many of these kids had no social boundaries or rules at home, for whatever reasons, we made social/emotional learning a huge part of the curriculum, with the Responsive Classroom program (it's called something else now). That, and community service at every grade level forced the kids to focus on something other than ME, ME, ME. The Responsive Classroom was a venue that made it possible to have the time to teach the social skills and manners that so many don't get at home. It wasn't a big chunk of the day (20 minutes 3-4 days a week), but I couldn't start my day without it. That morning handshake and sitting down and doing an academically focused activity, and sharing our outside lives broke down a lot of barriers. When my son enlisted, I had the worse group of kids I've ever had. But, when I sat down in our morning meeting and told them what happened and how upset I was, they came through. They helped me make it through the days ahead.
Was it perfect? Of course not. Teaching is the hardest job anyone can do. In fact, I can't believe I did it for 30 years.

[Aggie_Ama]

And they said the 80's was the ME decade (or the ME generation). They 'aint seen nothin' yet.

I was born in 1981, yes 1981. I am DISGUSTED at the way the teenagers in my neighborhood talk, act, drive and behave. Last month we called the sheriff because one of the little darlings we peeling out in front of my house and drving about 50 in a 25 while kids were playing. This little punk doesn't even live here just hangs out here. This summer they were bored and thought buying 9 watermelons to throw around the neighborhood would be fun. Yeah and so were the thousands of ants and rodents in front of my house. DH can't stand them and he is only 10 months older than me.

My friends the teach middle school almost make me cry with their stories. One had to cousel second graders having sex and the parents were not concerned.

The kids that live around me are only 10 years younger than me but I would have a butt so purple I couldn't sit if I acted like they did. My parents didn't beat me, I think they were awesome but I did get one or two spankings and to this day I believe I deserved it and I am okay with the fact that I got it.

I live in a predominantly white, middle class, suburban neighborhood, very much the demographic and financial level I grew up in. It is probably more church going and community involved than mine, I tend to believe parents have gotten lazier. Maybe not but I am having trouble being swayed to other side.

[PamNY]

I was born in 1981, yes 1981. I am DISGUSTED at the way the teenagers in my neighborhood talk, act, drive and behave. Last month we called the sheriff because one of the little darlings we peeling out in front of my house and drving about 50 in a 25 while kids were playing.

Kids driving too fast is not a recent phenomenon. My cousin took us all on a 90 mph joyride when I was ten years old, and that was 48 years ago.

I do have every sympathy and much admiration for teachers, and I'm sure they see the dark side of social change.

Nonetheless, the "kids today are awful" chant has gone on since the beginning of time, and always will. It's comical as I get older, as the people doing the complaining are ones about whom I heard many, many complaints.

I do wonder why one report of a bad kid leads people to conclude that all kids are awful. If a woman aged 46 commits a crime, conclusions are drawn about her, not about all 46-year-old women. It's also true that news about successful young people doesn't generate cries of "All kids are wonderful!"

An interesting article in the NY Times touches on this phenomenon.

To be clear, this thread has wandered, and the article has no bearing on the issues of the original post.

Pam

[bmccasland]

V - you could come to Loo-si-Ana and join the ranks of the lowest paid school teachers in the nation too. So it could be worse.

Now don't you feel better?

Didn't think so. Being childless, I've wondered where the breakdown occurred that parenting fell off. Or rather when parents quit being responsible for teaching their kids basic manners and civility?

I chewed some neighborhood kids up and down one afternoon who were playing "Army" or something in the street, cause one of the boys pointed a gun at me. Unfortunately for him, the owner of the gun ("not My gun") had taken pain to scratch off the orange safety paint so it wouldn't look fake. I told the group that one N E V E R points a gun at another person - especially if they aren't part of your game. How was I supposed to know?!? I used to play "Army" or whatever when I was a kid, but my Dad taught me, Never EVER point your toy guns at someone who isn't part of your game. Furthermore, get some orange paint, and paint the safety ring back on the gun. Kids have been killed because police officers couldn't tell it was a toy being pointed at them! We then had a discussion on basic gun safety.

Their response was, "yes, ma'am". Gawd, I like living in the south, where you can still get away with yelling at your neighbor's kids. Did help that we were all the same race. Not sure I'd try it if they were all *pick your minority* as I'm white.

[rocknrollgirl]

I have been teaching for 21 years and it has changed. I could go on, and on, but suffice it to say these little beasties that we are cultivating are very, very entitled.And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I teach primarily "good" kids, and even they are missing the basics in polite behavior and social graces. It is just not being taught at home anymore.

[Aggie_Ama]

Kids driving too fast is not a recent phenomenon. My cousin took us all on a 90 mph joyride when I was ten years old, and that was 48 years ago.


Pam

I got pulled over many times when I was younger and dumber but never did it in a neighborhood. This was 1:30 on a Saturday on a residential street. Kids play on the side walk and because our neighborhood is small and the adults drive slow they also play in the street. That is the part that makes our blood pressure go sky high.

The beautiful thing? The sheriff is required to investigate all complaints even if they think they are stupid so those little darlings parents got a knock from the boys (or girls one of them out here is a lady) in brown that afternoon. And I got to see it in the police log in the local paper. Been kind of quiet down there the rest of the month.

Seems what the teachers are experience is just what I seem to believe, many kids are just growing to feel a since of entitlement. Or maybe I am just getting old, jeez and I thought I was a spring chicken at 27.

[Aggie_Ama]

Didn't think so. Being childless, I've wondered where the breakdown occurred that parenting fell off. Or rather when parents quit being responsible for teaching their kids basic manners and civility?

I do wonder if I have a right to judge since I have no kids and may never chose to have them. But seeing that I usually form opinions on anything I darn well feel I wonder the same thing. My parents are completely laid back and we are often more friend than parent so I don't think it is lack of discipline. We had a lot of freedom. I guess if I knew they magic answer I could write a book and make millions. Go on Oprah or something.

[OakLeaf]

I would hate to think it's a choice between suicidal (kids who were beaten) and homicidal (kids who weren't, supposedly).

I don't know if it's just kids, though. Honestly? The people I see behaving most rudely, most consistently, are elderly people. Definitely displaying a sense of entitlement and an appalling lack of respect for others. And unlike kids with their toy guns, the old people are REALLY killing people with their real cars. I think it's what people have been fed in the news media for the last 10 or so years. Kids may be growing up on it, but old people really BELIEVE it.

[Tri Girl]

I have been teaching for 21 years and it has changed. I could go on, and on, but suffice it to say these little beasties that we are cultivating are very, very entitled.And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I teach primarily "good" kids, and even they are missing the basics in polite behavior and social graces. It is just not being taught at home anymore.

I agree completely. My kids are generally good from double income working class families who do their best. Most of the parents and kids at our school are good, but in general the level of entitlement and lacking basic manners is astonishing to me. General human decency seems to be going away (holding doors for others, picking up something for someone when they drop it, letting someone go first, saying please and thank you, etc...)

[OakLeaf]

General human decency seems to be going away (holding doors for others, picking up something for someone when they drop it, letting someone go first, saying please and thank you, etc...)

I had an experience in elementary school that was so mortifying I still remember it. This would've been no later than 1968, okay? My teacher had sent me on an errand to another classroom. Unknown to me, the other teacher was in the middle of lecturing her class on their many transgressions. After I'd delivered whatever it was I was sent to deliver, I started out of the classroom, and accidentally brushed against something and knocked it onto the floor, so I picked it up and put it back. The teacher then laid into her class, "See how she picked it up... why can't you do such a simple thing..."

So I guess, 40 years ago, the manners I was taught were already in short supply among kids my age. Like Aggie, I feel a little un-entitled in this conversation since I have no children. But I'm inclined to agree with the ones that say "things were ever thus." Everything always "used to be better." I heard it from my dad when he taught high school (retired about 10 years) and I hear it from my sister the college professor who's apparently forgotten the appalling stories she used to bring home from high school. I hear it from one of the aerobics instructors who's been retired for about 10 years from teaching middle school. I don't hear it from my mom the elementary school teacher, although she'll acknowledge that her interactions with parents have changed over the years, and obviously she has classes some years that are more of a challenge than other years.

I see the news media hyping certain things that don't bear out with crime statistics. For myself, I remember being terrified to put a step wrong for most of my childhood, but I also remember the trouble some of my peers would get into, and I hear all kinds of stories from DH about his childhood.

V., I AM sympathetic to what you have to deal with this year, and I'll repeat my admiration and appreciation for what you do. I don't think we need to agree on whether things used to be better for us all to say a collective THANK YOU to Veronica, TriGirl, and anyone else I've missed; a belated thank you to Crankin; and to all teachers.

[fastdogs]

I think I sort of understand some of it, after my niece showed us the "other side".
She had four kids, all by different fathers. One of the fathers is in prison for child molestation (someone else's kid, he never got caught with his own). There is a whole generation being raised by people who think of them as another possession, like an ipod. They love their ipod, but they put it away if they have another interest.
These kids never slept on sheets, never knew what clean clothes felt like, and rode piled on top of one another in cars, learning to watch for police cars so they could duck down.
THey were locked out of the trailer while their mom entertained a boyfriend, and ran in packs in the trailer park. They watched out for the police so their mom and whoever she was with could sell drugs in the living room. They periodically lost everything they owned when their mom got kicked out of another rental. Their mom always had a boyfriend, and often out of luck friends stayed with them for a while. Sometimes these friends molested or abused the children.They didn't know anything being taught at the school, but knew the visiting hours for the jail, times the police cars came by, and how to molest other children.
They never got medical care or dental care, but mom always had internet service, ipods, etc. I just think the kids grow up only getting attention when it's convenient, and knowing they are not that important to anyone. As all the details of their daily existence and the things they saw and learned were revealed, it was pretty disgusting.
Luckily for this bunch, the state took them away from her. My younger sister took the whole bunch in, and for the first time they saw someone making them the center of her life- she quit a job so she could move them closer to family, got them the medical, dental, and psychiatric care they needed. They learned to change their sheets once a week, help out with laundry and chores, and had schedules and discipline. They aren't perfect- they aren't from the best genetics and have some developmental problems, but they went from "special" slow students to honor roll students. Every day they sit down as a family for a meal, and they see a man and woman treating each other respectfully, and working every day. TV is limited, but they are involved in other activities and get to see what a "normal" life was like.
It's not just money- it's the way the parents act and how they treat the children. My husband was born in a foxhole during a civil war, and raised on rice and salt because of the famine created by the civil war, but during all the hard times the children were the most important things in their parent's lives, and they made many sacrifices so that the family could survive. They did not do things that would actually endanger the children, (something that is common in my niece's world). They had nothing, but they still raised their kids to be respectful, hard working, and moral.
It was shocking to me to realize there is an entire culture out there whose children are NOT the most important things in their lives- possessions and friends take priority over even their children. What it does to the kids is trouble for all the rest of us. I think they can shoot somebody for real, without a second thought, I don't think they are raised thinking that life means very much.
vickie

[shootingstar]

Luckily for this bunch, the state took them away from her. My younger sister took the whole bunch in, and for the first time they saw someone making them the center of her life- she quit a job so she could move them closer to family, got them the medical, dental, and psychiatric care they needed. They learned to change their sheets once a week, help out with laundry and chores, and had schedules and discipline. They aren't perfect- they aren't from the best genetics and have some developmental problems, but they went from "special" slow students to honor roll students. Every day they sit down as a family for a meal, and they see a man and woman treating each other respectfully, and working every day. TV is limited, but they are involved in other activities and get to see what a "normal" life was like.
It's not just money- it's the way the parents act and how they treat the children. My husband was born in a foxhole during a civil war, and raised on rice and salt because of the famine created by the civil war, but during all the hard times the children were the most important things in their parent's lives, and they made many sacrifices so that the family could survive. They did not do things that would actually endanger the children, (something that is common in my niece's world). They had nothing, but they still raised their kids to be respectful, hard working, and moral.
It was shocking to me to realize there is an entire culture out there whose children are NOT the most important things in their lives- possessions and friends take priority over even their children. What it does to the kids is trouble for all the rest of us. I think they can shoot somebody for real, without a second thought, I don't think they are raised thinking that life means very much.
vickie

Wow, fastdogs your sister and her hubby have incredible patience! It's wonderful to hear these occasional success stories.

Cultivating civility in a child takes a long time, lots of patience and best start at home.

I just remembered now as a child I switched to a 2nd public school in Ontario where the children during recess, after the bell rang to end recess, we were expected to line up per grade level and file back into the school building under the direction of the supervising teacher each day. This also occurred when school bell signalled start of school each morning. Does this happen anymore to slow down children after high activity on playground? Previous school where I began did not have this form of near military discipline. Children just piled in through the door.

[tribogota]

TRIGIRL, we have the opposite syndrome, I want to leave college teaching and have a Ph.D, they won't let me into the public schools without a certificate and don't want to go back to school and "student" teach when I have actually helped write some of the manuals they use to teach teachers....arg!

It is great to see how many of us are teachers, I really do believe that my student's selfishness and insanity drive me to triathlon, which although totally INSANE, seems sane in comparison.

My latest fights of the year are cell phones, a student answered her phone, I said not to, she put her open hand up to my face in the 'whatever' position and walked out. I locked the door and wouldn't let her back in in, her dad called the dean, I GOT IN TROUBLE.

It isn't really about WHY we teach, it is about WHY WE DON'T GET SUPPORT? Why we aren't respected?