Are you as appalled as I am?

[Tri Girl]

My DH gets irritated by the jewelry commercials that imply that the only way to say "I love you" is with diamonds. Every kiss begins with K...
I laugh at the commercials and tell him that real love is shown by doing the laundry, mopping the floor, or cleaning the toilet- heck I'd love it far more than a diamond. He can save some money on diamonds because diamonds don't help with the chores.




And the Wal-Mart story is so incredibly sad. People can be so stupid and selfish, and for what? a good deal on a tv or game. Tragic.

From the article:
"Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store. When told to leave, they complained that they had been in line since Thursday morning."

BFD so you've been in line since Thursday morning. A man died for crying out loud. Go somewhere else for your Christmas shopping. We (as a society) have really become so insensitive to life, haven't we?
Sorry- I'm stepping down off my soap box before I say too much about this incident and cause problems.

[Biciclista]

commercials? Just don't turn on your television.

My two best buddies just sent me the nicest presents ever.
A little tiny button featuring the president elect
two shopping bags (ORANGE) that fold up into a peach sized little holder..
and my best bday present of all?
A letter from a cousin who lives far far far away..

Cars don't buy you love.

[Grog]

One may think that "if you've earned your money than you can spend it however you like." I won't condemn my fellow humans for consuming goods, because I don't believe can throw the first stone; I certainly can't. (Having just ordered lots of luxurious wool clothing items from TE!) On the other hand, I definitely see that consumption is not a private matter at all. It has repercussions for everyone, but generally it's the poor that pay the price in terms of working conditions, environmental degradation, etc.

Air travel for example is something only few people on this planet can afford, yet everyone pays the environmental costs of it (huge amounts of pollution). The same is true for cars, although they are more widely distributed than air travel. To create most of the "stuff" that rich societies consume (electronics, cheap furniture, clothing, and the rest), it takes quite a bit of work performed by poor people in extremely toxic and often repressive environments in developing countries (so that we can pay low prices for them, as exemplified by the Wal-Mart trample). And that's not counting what happens to all that "stuff" when it becomes garbage in developed countries.

I don't have solutions or even suggestions at the moment, I just thought I'd share what's on my mind. Pretty depressing, uh?

[Zen]

Well said, Grog.

Tri-Girl, I just saw that story on TV. Disgusting. The people were still rushing in, jostling the EMT's as they were performing first aid.
I hope this will be the end of Wal-Marts Black Friday Frenzy openings, it happens every year but never before with a death.

[Biciclista]

yeah, Grog, I agree. We have huge footprints, and we're soiling the planet with them.

[Mr. Bloom]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

[Zen]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods?

yes. Do you have a reciprocating saw? I need to borrow one.

I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

sense...

[Eden]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

hmmmm..... Just yesterday I listened to yet another documentary piece on the working conditions in China (on NPR).... Dangerous and abusive companies in developing nations sound more than less like the exception.... Sure China has a lot of laws meant to protect workers, but pretty much no enforcement, so they are all just ignored.

Said company I worked at for a short time imported most of its product from China. I saw lots of pictures of working conditions - pretty primitive.... The owners big claim to generosity was buying the guys at one factory sun hats... Forget the fact that many wore shorts and were shirt and/or shoeless... The owner actually once bragged about working some of the guys over there for two days straight and into the wee hours of the morning.... and I'm sure none of the workers got any overtime.... This guy practiced evil ignorance extremely well..... He also said "don't tell me that" when I told him that you cannot dispose of computer monitors in the regular trash... and proclaimed that well the smoke goes up the chimney when I told him burning scraps of plywood gives off toxic fumes... (we had a fireplace in the office...) Other people meant nothing to him. The sad thing is that we have many people in this country (in the world for that matter) who are like him.

I'm not going to put all the burden on the consumer.... it's nearly impossible to avoid buying things from China too... you may not even know it if the parts are made there, but assembled elsewhere. Some things are difficult to buy at all, as they not made elsewhere anymore. I guess I wish collectively the world could show just a little more outrage at the treatment of its fellows, rather than demanding everything be as cheap as possible and perpetuating the abuse....

I'm also not going to take any of the burden away from the retailers.... I watched another documentary about clothing workers in China. I think in the end it cost about $4 in labor to produce a pair of jeans, when shipping and other costs of business were factored in the cost went up to maybe $9ish per pair and they were being sold for $60..... I've yet to be convinced that some retailers couldn't survive on slightly smaller profit margins and pay their workers better... (I know it doesn't work this way for all retailers - places that have to deal with middle men, distributors, and such - like bike shops... they get the costs passed onto them and have to make a profit to stay in business. I'm talking about those middle men and other places that directly sell what they have produced)

[Grog]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods?

It would be great if solutions to the world's complex problems were so easy! What I am certainly suggesting is that increased consumption is not improving anyone's condition beyond perhaps the immediate short term, not even for those who consume the goods. As much as I hate sounding like an old, bearded ideologue (I don't have a beard), there are still a lot of good times to be had by thinking about the relationship between the Master and the Slave, and how the Master is in fact enslaved.*

I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

At the very minimum, unless you consider living in a perpetual cloud of thick, debilitating smoke to be a good condition, no, the bad conditions are far from being the exception. I will skip the details about authoritarian regimes precluding freedom of speech, freedom of association, and worker's rights, or anyone's rights, for that matter.

North American or European countries will not challenge the situation, as they increasingly see how the giant dragon could crush them if it cared to sit down. Individual outsiders - you and me - can try, but taking pictures or talking to people who know something about what's doing on (middle managers?) is difficult and dangerous. Ironically, as the current economic difficulties in China show, this is another great example of Master-Slave role ambiguities...

* Nobody cares to read Hegel anymore, but this page offers the gist of it: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1104725AA2hpOZ

Edited to Add: There are also poor people in the United States. There sure are lots in Canada. They also bear most of the weight of pollution and stuff like that. Geez, there are so many problems and so few easy solutions.

[smilingcat]

* Nobody cares to read Hegel anymore, but this page offers the gist of it: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1104725AA2hpOZ

Another thing on my reading list...

It really is sad about our culture and our myopic view of the world.

"out of sight out of mind"

I don't care to discuss some of the points brought up here 'casue afterall this is cycling web site. We can go over to a political web site like randi show to talk more about it. There, we talk about politics (obviously), we talk about religion, economy, environment, LGBT issues... in separate categories. Yes its mostly liberals but there are some prominent conservatives there too. The rule there is if you state a fact, you have to post your source of your fact. If it's hannady, Limbough that's fine but you have to say where you got your source. My handle there is the same as here. And I haven't seen too many flaming there.

[Mr. Bloom]

Dangerous and abusive companies in developing nations sound more than less like the exception....

But is it really the rule? We say crime is rampant, but only 2% of the population has a felonious record...but crime seems the rule in some places.

The owner actually once bragged about working some of the guys over there for two days straight and into the wee hours of the morning....

It honestly sounds like my minimum wage job at Mr. Gatti's Pizza at the Eastwood Mall in Birmingham Alabama in 1979.

I respect that all of you feel sincere in your concern on this issue...I really do. But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

Interestingly, the very same argument was used to discourage the idea of freeing black slaves during the 1800's here in America. That they were 'better off' working as slaves and would not be able to fend for themselves and would therefore starve without their kind masters 'providing' for them.

No, these low wage workers would not be better off if they were starving and had no work at all.
But they WOULD be better off if their working conditions and hours were improved and they were paid/treated more fairly, as other workers are treated in other parts of the world. The truth is their working conditions and pay could be vastly improved and still leave plenty of room for all the business owners and middle men, all the way to the consumers, to profit. I would much rather pay 30-60% more for an item if I could be sure it was produced under decent and fair working conditions.

Unfortunately, if labor/humanitarian laws are not being enforced, then people in power usually try to get away with as much as they possibly can at the expense of those under them who are powerless.

[Eden]

I respect that all of you feel sincere in your concern on this issue...I really do. But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

I guess I see it as not having to be an all or nothing situation. It should be more than possible to make the lives of workers in other countries at very least humane (not even asking for luxurious here - just at least a living wage, and the things we expect in this country, like a reasonable work day/week, safe work environment) and still have a very fine standard of living in richer nations. It might mean sacrificing being a multi-million/billionaire for some people...... and probably higher prices for goods many people, but mostly the sacrifice of making the very few millions.... Personally I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I made money like that on the backs of poor people..

Just consider that Nike paid Michael Jordan $20 million to endorse their shoes.... that was more money than they paid their entire 35,000 member workforce that year to produce them... They also have annual profits in the billions... Is it unreasonable to expect them to not squeeze the workers so badly?

[Mr. Bloom]

So, the problem is not our patronage, but the conditions. This is something we can agree on.

But the comparison to slavery is loose at best when you compare employing indigenous people to enslaving kidnapped people.

[shootingstar]

I guess it does get down to making choices..of what goods/from where such goods originate, that we buy or if not, if we really wanted to be more ethical..do our own gardening, sewing (latter, I did lots for many years, but got lazy after cycling passion), etc. At least I don't support the auto industry, by not having any car.

And even when we rent one, like we did, last Sunday, my partner is fuming away because he is fighting his sleep disorder in order to stay awake behind the steering wheel.