Daydreaming here...

[runnergirl]

This issue really get me going!!!

Cycling is the last sexist main-stream sport. There's no reason that women can't cover the same distances as men, they will always be a few miles an hour slower, but they can cover the distances. I think that the tour should include a women's pelaton either a day ahead or a day behind on the same course. I was so enraged when I found out how short the tour de a'lude was I can't tell you!

Not to get too far off-topic, but the coverage of women's cycling is really abhorent as well. This month's Rodie magazine profiled a woman who has been dropped from t-mobile, and spent more time discussing her modeling career than her riding. Not to mention the playboy type pictures-absolutly disgusting. And I wonder why there are so many dirty old men at most club rides.

[bluerider]

Rant away my friends! I am upset at the non-existent coverage of women's road cycling on TV and non-existent features in roadie mags. Although I would love love love to see women's road races featured the way TdF is, I am also a realist and know that in my lifetime, women's cycling will be overshadowed by the men. I agree that women's physiology may not naturally lend to speeds that the men have but I won't agree that it's not possible. I'm a wannabe racer and would be deluded to think that I could compete in a high profile race like TdF or Giro or the Vuelta. Would I like to? You betcha! My beef isn't that women can't compete with the men, it's that events for women are viewed as lesser and essentially no coverage exists.

But I think by participating in local races and at best at the national level can gradually elevate interest and garner more respect for women's cycling.

[fixedgeargirl]

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears .

[RoadRaven]

Phew...
lots of stuff here

Absolutely no reason why women's races shouldn't be the same length as mens
Elite female cyclists do the same miles and go through the same pain as elite male cyclists
No doubt
I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

If women could achieve the power and speed on bikes that men could then there would be some female domestiques, or lieutenants or quarterbacks (terms I quite like described on the Science of Lance) on something like the current Tour we are watching
These teams want the best - the fastest, strongest riders. I doubt very much they would say no to an elite cyclist who could fit into the team speeds just because she was a woman.
But there are no female riders

The fact is that women - despite being able to achieve incredible athleticism and power outputs and times and cover amazing distances... will never, unless/until human physiology changes, make it with the equivalent elite male cyclists.
Our body shape is different
Our fat/muscle ratio is different

You see the same thing in other disciplines too (For example... Women body builders do not build the muscle mass of males and Male runners hold the fastest overall times)

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic

[bounceswoosh]

I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

SNIP

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic

If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.

I'd love to see elite male and female riders duking it out for the finish, too. But I think a good first step would be to get some females in the race, regardless of how they place. And if that's ever going to happen, it will be because some elite women say, "I can do that," and not because they say "I can't."

[spazzdog]

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.

Yes, there is a huge field of women pro's, some lucky enough to have a steady gig on some well sponsored teams, but the existance of teams does not a Tour make.

As in other women's pro sports, the money just isn't there or rather isn't made available. Ask 'chelle. She's pro (mtb), she has a sponsor, and I'll bet getting there wasn't necessarily an easy trip... it ain't easy out there folks. Physiology, endurance, training with high goals; all valid and anyone who has a dream of racing should go for it. But if you want to race you need to know what options are out there and plan/train accordingly.

spazzdog

[RoadRaven]

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.

Jump away...

I agree Spazz, we need to find a way to make it desirable for sponsers and advertisers to want to sponser womens cycling, or place their ads into coverage...
And I suggest being squeaky wheels
Like I said in earlier posts, bug your loacl networks who provide sports coverage until they realise there is money to be made

Filthy lucre is a great motivator!

[RoadRaven]

If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.

Me again

Ok... I absolutely agree we should set goals and aim high and think f-them all, I can do this
But the point of thinking about it is that in the back of your head you should to be aware that male and female physiology is different...

I will continue to disagree when I see a comment saying maybe we'll see a woman in a "mans" tour because I have yet to be shown evidence that women can perform at that level - if anyone has examples, please share, because I would love for it to happen

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

Women can race with men at club levels - and thrash the pants off most of them.
But to get into elite races you have to manage qualifying times... and that tends to favour one gender.

I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

[bounceswoosh]

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

Well, they're the examples with which I'm familiar. But iirc these both happened in the last year, maybe two?

I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

Maybe so, but I think the jury's still out, and may never be in, on how much physical gender differences are based on early socialization. I realized recently that my mom and I have totally different views on how supportive she was of me growing up. I know she meant to be, but in some ways, it just didn't turn out that way. Anyway, we still have moms and dads who, even if they support their daughters being active in sports, assume that the daughters won't perform as well. As you teach gender issues, I'm sure you know all about expectations and resulting performance.

We simply don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture.

Yes, as I've gotten older, I've begun to say the same thing -- that it's harder for me than it is for the guys I've met. But I can't just accept that. And in cycling, as with many sports, I have to wonder if the issue of fit and availability plays in. So many women have trouble finding a good fit on a bike, or finding high-performance equipment that fits them. In a three-week race, I wonder how much a poor fit would cost you?

And don't discount the boys' club aspect. If you yourself insist that a woman can't compete in the Tour (or whatever sport), how much harder would it be for a man to overcome his reservations and put a woman on the team?

Maybe the most elite male athletes are going to do better than the most elite female athletes. Maybe. But even if that's a given, I don't fit in that category, and neither do most of the people in the world. If someone is the type of person who likes to push herself hard (and I definitely do), setting "unrealistic" goals can be a huge motivator. I'm not looking to join the Tour (I don't even have a road bike!), but I don't see why it would hurt to have that as an eventual goal. Of course, depending on one's current ability level, it might not be a bad idea to set some intermediate goals, too.

[RoadRaven]

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears .

I agree - there are alot of women out there who would watch, and the mens audience would grow too
I guess it has to be sold to advertisers as a glamour event (like the Tour has been) and then the money will fall into place for coverage
Communities have to keep badgering networks and letting them know we wnat coverage - if they don't hear us, they won't respond

[AutumnBreez]

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think? Besides the dirty ol' men could sit with beers and their remote controls and watch the girls ride if they did not come in person.
Why is it that men can get upset at Women's only clubs and wittle their way into them using the excuse that they are being excluded due to the sex of the club?

Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need? Anyone interested in beginning one? One that also focuses on off season/on season exercises, tips, diagrams of proper form, etc., Nutritional info, with a chosen recipe for the month. I don't know how to get one started. I just have lots of ideas on the lay out. Advertisements do help fund, but would not want half mag. to be advertisement, but a focus on Women's Cycling would be nice.
Ya, probably dreaming, but many things we have today are from dreams that seemed less then likely to become what they are today. Flight for example, from Wright Bros. to NASA in such a short time. Women's Voting rights. Don't stop dreaming ladies, we will see Women's Pro Cycling if we have determination and persistance, dedication and vision to see it.

[RoadRaven]

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

There are pro-race events for women... we just don't hear much about them cause they're not worth much to sponsers/advertisers

Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need?

This would be great... I don't know about around the world, but the road race mags we get here are Australian, European and American and all male focused.
The mountain bike mags seem to have more women in them.
Any female fitness mags here seem to fill up with useless tips and irrelevant recipes and not focused training plans etc, let alone single disciplines for women.
There is a good multi-sport mag here that represents both genders well.

[spazzdog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutumnBreez
Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

Refering to my previous post, there are "completely different races for women".

The Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale (grrls TdF) a 6 stage tour, which supposedly ran June 28-July 2 this year. The website (if you can read French) is:
http://www.velo-feminin.com/

Notice it occured the week before the TdF... anybody hear anything about it?
Didn't think so.

For the full UCI calendar for Elite Women go to: http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Calenda...005-FEMMES.pdf

As for a magazine... that would be great, but again it takes money. WomenSport mag started out great and ended up looking like a mini-Cosmo. Perhaps all of us that subscribe/purchase VeloNews, ProCycling, CyclingNews, etc should hit them all with an email/letter campaign demanding "equal" coverage.

I don't mean to be so harsh, but as an original Title 9 baby I've seen it over and over again since the early '70's.

spazzdog

[RoadRaven]

Thanks for the PDF link, Spazz

Gonna print it out and start badgering local and national newspapers, as well as hassling SKY TV and local TV stations !!!

We do have packaged highlights of some of these - but an insignificant amount compared to the mens... we do get some great packages of the loacl "fun" rides too - like K2, and Round Taupo

[spazzdog]

bounce, golf and formula 1 are great examples of women playing with the men, yes... and good for them. I think it's great. But as Raven says neither sport absolutely depends on strenge and endurance. Cycling does.

But lets look at women's pro sports:

Tennis, the women had to start their own association to start making progress and it still took years for the somewhat "equal" tournament time and prize money to come around.

Soccer - the women's pro league came and has already gone in the states.

Basketball - the WNBA has made it because they play a different season than the men, thus not taking away from the cash flow.

Football - still at a "semi-pro" level. These girls still have to work for a living and get very little publicity.

Need I go on...

Cycling is an exiting sport. Women CAN do very well in the amateur ranks, some can even go pro and enjoy success, but you will never see women racing against men in the TdF. Personally I don't want to. I don't feel it's necessary to compete against men. Instead, fuel the fire for women's events to become AS respected, AS exciting, AS profitable.

If there's a women's race in your area make sure you go. Find the organizers... tell them how much you want to see more. If you want to race, get going. Learn, race, race some more...WIN.

Push local clubs to include women's cat3/4 separate races when they hold events. Go to them. Watch them. Race in them. It's only through racing at the lower levels that women can move up the category ladder to reach pro status.

Write letters to the editors of the racing magazine demanding more coverage of the women's scene.

OK - I'm done. spazz