Esperanto

[shootingstar]

Well then, you already know how great it is to be multilingual. Why don't Engineers Without Frontiers use the local language wherever possible, through engineers who speak the language (preferable) and/or interpreters? Alot of people in developing areas are not literate in their own languages, not to mention that many people around the world are just trying to survive and don't have the wherewithall to read Esperanto textbooks. Just seems like using the local language has all sorts of benefits, not least of which is local involvement and buy-in to projects. Esperanto is admirable, but I'm not convinced it's the best way to go.

It's just a big rant of mine that people in the US (and Canada--read below) don't learn other languages from childhood and use them into adulthood. I know Canadians are required to learn French in school (and Quebecois are supposed to learn English, I think?), but a few years ago I was at a conference in Montreal and I was the one who ended up translating between the folks from Alberta and the Quebecois on a professional project visit. I was born in New Jersey--and yet I was the bilingual one. I'm not a translator, I'm a landscape architect like the other people at the conference. The Albertans hadn't spoken French since school and the Quebecois didn't speak English well enough to communicate in English. It did result into some good, if sheepish, laughs on all sides, though.

I would like to respond to Kh comments on esperanto first, before I respond to tulip's:

Interestingly I knew of a Dutch cyclist who was cycling around the world solo ..and she dropped by Vancouver to visit us. She was an enthusiastic speaker and learner of esperanto. There seems to be whole community, if I am not mistaken...even a cycling informal Internet group who speak esperanto. She did stay in her trip with some esperanto folks worldwide.

I think the most important thing, regardless of how popular or...obscure a language maybe, is if there is a group of people in our big world to speak with...then that's great. Perhaps a point of esperanto..is not to diminish multicultural richness but to give a layer of bonding internationally.

After all, ENGLISH holds political weight in language dominance in ...professional fields worldwide, business and....look here....on the Internet just to find the broadest set of search results on many topics. I'm not saying it's right, but it is a terrible reality in language dominance internationally.


For tulip: I read your rant....with sadness. Recognize there are alot of Canadians who don't necessarily appreciate / remember their mandatory French that they had to learn in primary/high school. I will confirm I can read more French than any Chinese. I was tested for 3 hrs. recently for reading comprehension and sat at near failing level....which I consider positive since I haven't used any French since taking a mandatory basic French course over 25 years ago...mandatory to graduate with my university English literature degree. I thought I would do worse!!!

However it is POSSIBLE, tulip because many Canadians are required to learn French in school.up to a certain grade level...it might increase awareness for some folks who wouldn't experience otherwise unless forced as a mandatory course, to APPRECIATE even dimly, (no matter how much they hated learning that 2nd language) what it is like to learn a 2nd language and that the spirit of cultural nuances is embedded in linguistic structure, idioms, etc.

I don't believe that the objective of 2nd/foreign language learning needs to be primarily ability to have basic fluency or comprehension. Nice to have, but not always realistic.

***** I believe the true, top benefit of 2nd/foreign language is not fluency, but heightened awareness and hopefully, sensitivity by the learner of another culture and how the world can be perceived differently through the lens of another linguistic structure/words.

Like many folks who have severely lost their mother tongue or 2nd /3rd language fluency, I am sad to have lost a great deal of what I acquired as a child. As you know, tulip, language retention demands daily use/immersion for several hrs.

That's great you could translate for the situation that you described. But the problem of 2nd/3rd language retention plagues learners/speakers worldwide..

[Grog]

***** I believe the true, top benefit of 2nd/foreign language is not fluency, but heightened awareness and hopefully, sensitivity by the learner of another culture and how the world can be perceived differently through the lens of another linguistic structure/words.

+1 on that. It's also such an eye-opening experience to be standing on one's own in a foreign country where nobody speaks your language. But an experience I try to avoid by learning the basics of other languages before travelling!!

Esperanto is meant to be quick to learn for speakers of most languages. I really think that the Engineers Without Borders idea that Kat described is great. It allows the foreign engineers and local people to be sort of on an equal standing, linguistically, and to work together without an interpreter (interpreters are costly and not always inaccurate or qualified). I am quite sure literacy is not an issue here, in most places anyway.

I should add that in Canada it is NOT mandatory to learn a second language in most provinces, and that even where it is the level of instruction is dismal in most places. Mostly, it's creating a sea of people who think they know a language... Which is not necessarily much better than not knowing any at all. [I had written a long rant on second-language teaching in Canada but I'll spare you all!!]

[tulip]

You guys are ruining my Canada Is Awesome stance!

[Melalvai]

My husband and I dabbled in it a few years ago. It is popular among con-langers (people who create their own language, a harmless if somewhat eccentric hobby, J.R.R. Tolkein is a famous con-langer, technically speaking so was Zamenhof, the creator of Esperanto). Although we only dabbled in it for a couple years, we could hold entire (stilted) conversations, and read (slowly) stories and articles. I was more fluent in Esperanto than I had been in Spanish after 4 years of high school Spanish. It is so easy to learn that with slightly more application we could easily have been more fluent.

It was fun, and something I'd do again if he were still interested. I guess on my own I don't have any motivation to bother. I do wish more organizations would pick it up, because it would solve a lot of problems since it is so easy to learn and culturally neutral (mostly). Engineers, air traffic control... There's even an esperanto scientific journal, that I would like to publish in some day.

[shootingstar]

+I should add that in Canada it is NOT mandatory to learn a second language in most provinces, and that even where it is the level of instruction is dismal in most places. Mostly, it's creating a sea of people who think they know a language... Which is not necessarily much better than not knowing any at all. [I had written a long rant on second-language teaching in Canada but I'll spare you all!!]

This might make you nauseous Grog: one of my Canadian cousins...who was a primary public school teacher in Ontario for about 35 years before she retired recently, taught French to her students. :

I do admit, it felt a whole lot better for myself, visiting Paris for a few days vs. getting by myself in Athens for a few hrs. Because of the foreign Greek script it was...like getting lost in a Chinese city/section.

Makes me wonder how much information on the Internet about cycling is in other non-English languages. Or is the greatest volume and diversity of Internet topics on cycling written in English?

[kat_h]

Interestingly I knew of a Dutch cyclist who was cycling around the world solo ..and she dropped by Vancouver to visit us. She was an enthusiastic speaker and learner of esperanto. There seems to be whole community, if I am not mistaken...even a cycling informal Internet group who speak esperanto. She did stay in her trip with some esperanto folks worldwide.

That is cool. There's a book published each year or so of esperantists who are willing to host others for free, basically like Warm Showers but for language geeks. There's even someone listed in Japan who is willing to let guests stay for free for several weeks. That alone is worth learning the language for IMO.

Not sure if alot of engineers in a fast-paced, high pressure project environment would take time to learn esperanto.

I can't imagine many of the engineers I've met ever volunteering for anything either. Maybe the ones who go for Without Borders are different.

When I started taking the class a friend commented that Klingon would be more useful. I'd like to see a comparison of the numbers worldwide on that actually. I suspect there are probably quite a few people who speak both. I have noticed that most esperantists speak multiple languages anyway and picked up esperanto because it's easy and fun. There's a pretty lively esperanto community in Calgary. Once the summer comes I'm going to go to their weekly coffee nights.

[MomOnBike]

Mi parolas esperonton.

In fact my entire family, including Elder Daughter's boyfriend are Esperantists. We learned it as a way of expanding the girl's educational horizons. It seems to have done its job, both girls are comfortable with language, and learning languages. No small feat for a USA-ian.

I have to disagree about Esperanto having no culture of its own. There is, it just isn't - can't be - a national culture. Travel, books (I read Pinocciho in E-o, translated from the Italian), magazines, music (all-time favorite music group - Kajto), and general education and socializing are high points. I've opened my home on less than a day's notice to traveling Esperantists - it's just what we do. (Didn't regret it, either)

All in all, Esperanto has been good to me and my family. I love the ideals it has of peace and open communication between all peoples.