Heartrate discussion

[Tuckervill]

So I bought a Polar F6 so I can pinpoint the calories spent on exercise and hopefully accelerate my weight loss. Calorie King was overestimating my calories burned by about 20 percent! Does this mean my body is more efficient than it should be?

That's not really my question.

My wonderings are about max heart rate. The HRM has a program you can go through to determine your heart rate zones, and max HR. I haven't done it, so it's using the standard calculation, 220-age. It is proving to be pretty accurate, for when I reach what it says is my max heart rate, I'm soooo ready to quit whatever I'm doing.

Usually I reach my max HR when I'm doing something very vigorous, like squat thrusts. Today it was sprinting across the gym. On the bike, it's when I do short, steep hills.

Here's what I don't like about reaching max HR. Maybe I can describe it well enough to get some insight about it.

Let's take squat thrusts. We usually do 20. I'm fine up to about 17, then we do the last three. At the end, my HR has shot up there to the max. But we're done, yet my HR is way up there and I'm feeling like crap--chest pounding and out of breath. It's a feeling I really hate to experience. Dread it.

Back when I was really out of shape, 6 or 7 years ago, I could get this way after climbing a flight of stairs under certain conditions. It used to alarm me. I'm reaching max in a matter of seconds, and that can't be good.

Sprints in the gym today. Sprinted 5 times across the gym (it's about 60 feet), then there were 4 more minutes of running. I had to walk a few laps to get my HR down so I could function again.

It seems to me that my HR can shoot up there to the max pretty quickly (I hate it, so I avoid it as much as possible--it's what holds me back on climbing hills on the bike). I had an EKG once where the doctor said I had a "juvenile" pattern (I was 35). I don't know if this is good, bad, indifferent, or if this is common or unique, or does this suite me to a particular kind of sport or what?

Can the max HR be raised? (I think there's a thread about this somewhere.) Can I develop the ability to do things faster without reaching my max HR so quickly?

Any thoughts? All appreciated.

Karen

[tulip]

It's my understanding that workouts should fall between 60% and 80% of the max heartrate, not 100%. In my spinning class, the only place I use a HRM currently, I keep it in that range. When I approach 90%, I back off.

I'm sure others know alot more than this, but voilà my thoughts.

[Veronica]

Here's my personal experience and maybe I'm a genetic anomaly.

My max HR is 192 - I've seen it a few times on HRM monitor and when I was tested that's about what they projected.

But I can ride for hours in the 160 - 175 range. My average HR on Saturday for the first 86 miles was 164. I don't know what it was after that because my monitor refused to go above 120.

164 is about 85% of my max. My personal experience says that you can train yourself to sustain a higher heart rate. When I climb Diablo, I'm usually up above 175 for a good chunk of the 10 mile climb. That's about 91% of my max.

Like I said, this is all anecdotal and I may be odd. Well, I know I'm odd, but you know what I mean.

V.

[LBTC]

My knowledge is also limited. Judging by how you feel, you are probably hitting or getting very close to your max HR. My understanding is that max HR does not actually change, however, with training, the amount of effort you can exert without hitting your max is what increases. By backing off before your reach max, and by specifically training to more like 85% a lot, you should find that efforts that once caused you to max will eventually not.

The time it takes for your HR to come back down to normal is the recovery time. Apparently, interval training is the best way to train your heart to recover faster.

I haven't worn my HRM for the types of exercises that you are indicating, but I have found that spinning on the trainer, my best recovery happens with lighter faster spinning, not by stopping.

Tonight I'll be doing a test to find my lactic balance point - the point where I produce lactic acid and remove it at the same rate. After I know this, I'll train 80% of the time at or below that rate and 20% of the time above it. I'm hoping this will take some of the mystery out of my heart rate!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[maillotpois]

That's my gut feeling also - that max HR is sort of genetically determined and doesn't get higher. (I will look into that more and ask the folks we work with at Endurance PTC and see what they say).

What you CAN raise with work, are your lactate thresholds. (For truly useful analysis, there are 2 lactate or ventilation thresholds: (1) VT1, the lactate threshold in which lactate begins to accumulate in the blood (which leads to a transition to steady state metabolism, the endurance training zone) and (2) VT2, the point at which steady state metabolism can no longer be maintained (the transition from heavy to extreme exercise).) You can also raise your power outputs (i.e. how much power are you putting out for a given HR).

It seems to me that V has raised her VT1 level with training. This is her moderate/endurance zone. My VT1 level was fairly close to this at the beginning of last year (156 - 173). Not sure what it is now (probably 120! ). Power outputs at these levels is key also. How much power can you put out at a given HR? I'm hoping mine improved from last year, but with this time off the bike I'll be lucky to stay at the same level.

so for Tuckervill's question, I think for sprints, you are going to be going above the VT2 level, close to max regardless. I have some questions about how this max type work fits into your overall training plan, though. How often are you doing these max type efforts? How much emphasis is on interval and endurance pace training?

[SadieKate]

I have nothing to add about max HR, but I did want to point you to this thread since you mention calories. If the F6 is using the same algorithms, you need to know this info.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...=polar+calorie

[Grog]

I don't think your max changes much with time (other than slowly being reduced) but I wouldn't be surprised if it changed from your point of view. Here's what I mean:

The formula doesn't work for me. I am 30 and my max (the max HR I can sustain for one minute) is actually more like 202. I know it's been much over that when I was a teenager because vigorous jazzexercise workouts would clock me above 200, and that was not even my hardest. I'd just stop counting because I was afraid the trainer would be worried about me. I found those numbers appearing on my HRM when I started cycling, when I would power up hills and stuff like that. A cardiologist friend of mine told me not to worry about it as we were hiking up a good slope and my HRM stayed at 194 for an hour. Having a BIG heart that beats slowly can be more of an issue, as we've sadly seen with Ryan Shay's death at the Olympic trials.

When I started running (two years after starting cycling), no matter what I did, I could not reach 200 on the run. I felt exhausted, I wanted to quit and sometimes to puke, but there's no way I would get to 200. 190 or 194 was my "max" on the run. Then I started training more seriously for running and doing hill reps, and now I can consistently hit 200 if I want to, but it's really hard, and I am really on the verge of spilling my last lunch when I do. Don't try this alone. If you get really dizzy (I never did, but who knows) you'll be happy you have someone there.

NOW ABOUT YOUR QUESTION: While I don't think your max HR can be raised (what others said about genetics etc.), I wouldn't be surprised if you explored higher numbers as you get fitter. HOWEVER, based strictly on my experience, I would not encourage you to spend a lot of your training time at that level. Why don't you try, for a workout or two, to measure your perceived rate of exhaustion/effort (PRE)? That's a number out of ten. You can always hide your HRM in your back pocket and have a look after the workout if you don't want your assessment of your PRE to be influenced by your exact HR. For each period of time you spend at 9 or 10/10, there should be a lot of recovery at more a pedestrian 6 and 7/10. YES that will mean seriously slowing down most of the time. But you'll improve faster and feel better about yourself if you allow yourself to recover.

Another trick is to try to climb your favourite steep hill while keeping your HR as low as possible (you can set a predetermined value; for me it's 160 or 165) instead of letting it shoot up. You'll get to the top slower than usual, but not that slower, and you'll feel more empowered. I don't know why, but it worked for a lot of women I know.

What is for sure is that, as you train, you'll increase the intensity of the exercise you can perform at a given heart rate. Just for kicks I did a chart of my average heart rate and average speed on the bike (based on Bikejournal) for my first two years of cycling, and although my speed was fairly constant (my rides were on more hilly terrain I think) my average HR went down with time. Now I only wear my HRM for specific workouts so I don't have much data, but I'm sure the trend is still there. However, my HR remains high compared to the person next to me: it will stay at well above 180 for the entire duration of a half-marathon. That's just the way it is.

Ok that's a long rambling message. This topic always enflames me for some reason!! Sorry about that. Hope it helped a little bit.

[Grog]

p.s. I re-read your original message and it leaves me wondering if the HR data from anaerobic exercises (lifting weights, doing squats, running 100m, etc.) should be interpreted differently than that of aerobic exercise (cycling and running at "normal" pace). We need an exercise physiologist here!

And, by the way, if you doc told you "you have the heart of an old woman" at age 35 THAT would be a problem. I'll take a juvenile heart any day.

[SadieKate]

As I recall from hearing Sally Edwards speak eons ago, max HR is sport specific. She has lots of free articles which may have more info.

http://www.heartzones.com/resources/

[maillotpois]

p.s. I re-read your original message and it leaves me wondering if the HR data from anaerobic exercises (lifting weights, doing squats, running 100m, etc.) should be interpreted differently than that of aerobic exercise (cycling and running at "normal" pace).

I was thinking that. I don't think the squats translate in any way to cycling. (ETA by this I mean the HR during the squats or any sort of weight lifting wouldn't translate to cycling HR.) The sprints on the other hand may. HR is definitely sport specific. And you can become very efficient at the sports you focus on.

[Tuckervill]

This is all very interesting.

*Polar off by 33%! (per the other thread quoted) Oy vay. It has worked for me to lower the calories I logged from Calorie King figures to the Polar figure. I've lost 2 pounds in two weeks, which is better than I've been doing. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that I'm burning 450-500 calories for an hour's work out. Since I have nothing else to base it on, and CK was clearly high, I'm going to stick with this. (Maybe Polar's HRM's got better, too.)

*I have hit my max heart rate according to the formula 220-age, at least twice during this class that I can remember. Once was this morning. The other was last week doing squat thrusts.

*The "boot camp" that I take is very laid back. Everyone goes at their own pace. I was pushing it hard during the sprints. (I haven't run fast in a long time and I was having fun.) If I wanted to stop the squat thrusts before I maxed out, I could.

*I can go a long time in the 60-80% range, and I'm happy with that. Climbing hills on the bike, though--that really cranks it up and it ticks me off. That's not even standing! I already climb slow, so slowing down more does not appeal to me!

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how to manage that meteoric rise to max HR that occurs in those situations, without just refusing to do it. I'm concerned that it's not safe, either--after a minute of squat thrusts I'm at my max? A sprint of maybe a 10th of a mile? Can this be healthy?

Karen

[SadieKate]

I don't think the squats translate in any way to cycling.

Just curious why you say that.

See Emma Colson's article on pages 30-31.
http://www.sma.org.au/publications/s...nt1-9final.pdf

On page 31:

Lower limb
The gluteals are important for cycling. They can contribute to up to 30 per
cent of the power of the pedal stroke. If the gluts are not functioning, the vastus lateralis and even the gastrocnemius on that side will do extra work. Leg press work, ensuring the gluteals are switched on at the top of each push, is relevant. Weighted squats can be a useful strength and power exercise for the cyclist. Care must be given with technique, in particular switching on the TA prior to loading (not bearing down), activating the
gluteals and the vastus medialis obliquus (VMO) and then being smooth with the push. Care must be taken to assess the level of fatigue when doing very low reps; say, three repetitions maximum.

Fred and Ed recommend them as part of early season prep:
http://www.roadbikerider.com/DCtips.htm

And Chris --
http://outside.away.com/outside/body...-strength.html

What's your source for your opinion?

[Tuckervill]

Grog, you're post gave me lots to think about. I'm going to digest it.

As for sports-specific HR...I can tell what things will spike my heart rate and what won't, before I do them. I do try to avoid doing those things. This gives me a mental block against hills. I haven't got to ride yet with my HRM, but I'm going go out and do some experimenting as soon as I can.

Sometimes we do circuits that include an arc-trainer with a HR monitor in the handles. For a while I would play heart rate games and see how high I could get it on the arc-trainer. About 160 was as high as I could go. Anyway.

Thanks, all very informative. You gals rock.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

I just want to clarify that it is squat-thrusts, not just squats, that I'm talking about. The thrusting and jumping back up is what drives the heart rate. (Lifting my fat a@@ in the air!) I can do sumo-type squats all day long.

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/6...uat-thrust.htm

Karen

[SadieKate]

Luckily, my crappy knees prevent me from doing those.