How do I tell a friend....

[KSH]

She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out. I never did this with mine to train her.

This is an area that you can address, without completely treading on dangerous territory.

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.

Start there. Maybe she will see how slapping her kid is like slapping the dog... and stop it all together?


Something I have learned in life... if you have a *friend* who's behavior you simply cannot tolerate... or you don't understand how they manage their life... then it's best to cut ties with that friend.

[Veronica]

And you can tell it her that it doesn't do any good to punish the dog, unless caught in the act.

V.

[Trek420]

exactly!

Dogs have the short term memory of...of...what was that again?

If you catch the dog in the act of whatever it is you don't want it to do and punish it they make the connection. By punish all that's needed is a sharp "no!" or even "unh uh" nothing further. Dogs undertand tone, inflection, never hit a dog, not with your hand, not with anything.

But punish them later on, Half hour, 5 minutes, even 10 seconds later your dog is not thinking "oh, must be for what I did then" your dog just fears YOU.

Imagine you're at work and randomly for no apparent reason your boss comes in slaps you upside the head and suspends you. Never says why, never says what you did wrong, just hits and suspends you. You wouldn't know what to do.

I've heard it said about kids "catch them in the act of being good", with my dog I decide what behaviors I want her to do, sometimes have to break it down into steps; sit, that becomes sit then lie down, becomes sit-down-roll over.

I find positive methods work best, don't we all feel good and work much harder when we are praised? Sure it takes patience and consistency. (you mentioned this gal is not patient?) But training a dog should be fun on both ends of the leash. Are there any free courses at local schools or a club.

[AutumnBreez]

So happy to get a ride in today!!!
Riding helps clear my head.
I also find creative thoughts.

[Pedal Wench]

Aren't we the funniest group - we all focused on her abhorent treatment of the dog, not on the fact that she slaps her child!

You might be able to bring up the subject of that by turning it around to yourself and your children. "Hey, girlfriend, I would rather that my children don't see you slapping your daughter, so if you must do it, please do not do it in their, or my, presence - it bothers me too..." She might get the idea that it's just not an acceptable behavior, in public or private.

[AutumnBreez]

Aren't we the funniest group - we all focused on her abhorent treatment of the dog, not on the fact that she slaps her child!

You might be able to bring up the subject of that by turning it around to yourself and your children. "Hey, girlfriend, I would rather that my children don't see you slapping your daughter, so if you must do it, please do not do it in their, or my, presence - it bothers me too..." She might get the idea that it's just not an acceptable behavior, in public or private.

Good point...and point taken and will use the next time she starts to raise her hand at her or the animal, even if it is just to raise hand as to hit (threaten) sometimes it is just a threat, and more are the real deal.
Thank you...

[singletrackmind]

Animal abuse: where child abuse often begins....also you can't ignore the mother's upbringing-the way she deals with other living beings may be the only way she's ever known...

Hitting a child (in our culture) caries more of a stigma so I could see how pointing it out may help reduce it-in public at least- vs mentioning the animal's plight...re-education may be the only way to end or at least reduce it.

Mother Knows Best is an EXCELLENT suggestion, Snapdragen. Very easy to read and understand, a wonderful book.

[snapdragen]

There is one line in Mother Knows Best that has stuck with me (I'm paraphrasing) "Remember, your puppy is being the best puppy he/she knows how to be"

[Irulan]

find out if the local adult education offers parenting classes and get a brochure.Many times the base will offer stress and parenting classes for military families.

As much as it hurts tho, you may have to choose keeping a friend and myob or risk loosing a freind over this.

~irulan

[fixedgeargirl]

My favorite parenting resource is motherindotcom discussions. On the Gentle Discipline thread you can find lots of people agoninzing over this same thing (my friend hits her kids, what can I say?). It's terrible that this little girl is going through this. Hitting teaches fear and distrust of the one person in the world who is supposed to unconditionally protect this child. If you can be the one to broach this subject with her you will be doing this little girl a favor that will last her a lifetime.

[doc]

Wow. What a story. First of all, people usually do train/treat their pets the way they treat their children. She is unacceptable on both counts. In my opinion, it is NOT ok to say nothing. That is how children/women die of abuse. "It's not my problem" is the easiest approach. But as caring compassionate people who want the best for our children/world/earth we need to speak up about behaviors that are unacceptable.

That being said, the how is always the hardest. There are lots of possible approaches. You need to pick one that you're comfortable with. You can even start with "Hey, I've owned tons of dogs and am great at training. Let me show you how" Then, while training explain how hitting is destructive. Then you can gently mention how kids and pets learn the same way. Depending on your friendship and her motivations, she could really learn new parenting techniques from you.
You can enlist the help of clergy or school counselors as singletrack suggested. In the USA you can make an anonymous (but specific) tip to the child abuse hotline in your area. You can simply point out that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends avoiding corporal punishment. And so on and so on.
Protect yourself emotionally. If she is just frazzled she may be thrilled with your help. If she is just uneducated, again she will be thrilled to learn something new and better. If she is just mean, you and the authorities need to know it.
Good Luck!!

[singletrackmind]

I LOVE the fridge posting and "sharing" idea! Sort of a 'hey, I'm interested in this and it's so cool I'd love to share it with you to try out too' thing.

Hope it works!

[madisongrrl]

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.

Ummm....Dogs don't necessarily discriminate between getting hit with a paper or a human hand. Dogs are fight/flight animals who view the would as safe or dangerous. If the human hits/hurts the dog in anyway, then the human will be viewed as an unsafe entity.

Dogs who are punished during potty training
1. Don't ask their humans to "go outside" - humans are unsafe
2. learn to urinate in the absence of their owner - because punishment doesn't teach a dog to potty outside.
3. When human comes home, dog "looks guilty" so human punishes...in fact dogs are not "guilty" (dogs aren't cognitively capabile of having morals - they simply do what works)....dogs have learned that urine + arrival of human = punishment/harsh tones. The dog will act submissively (a gesture that is meant to "reduce aggression") because the human unknowingly conditioned this response.

Potty training is accomplished through management and reinforcement - period. There is so much current literature on this topic that it is ridiculous in this day and age people are still punishing their dogs during potty training. The simple fact is that this lady is punishing her dog and the dog is still "going" inside the house - so what that should tell her is that her approach isn't working......

The most benevolent way to approach people like this is to ask "How is that working for you?" - because usually its not working so great....then you can tell them how you would approach this problem and give the reasoning behind your suggestions....

2 cents from a canine behaviorist-in-training

[snapdragen]

Autumn, there is an excellent book by Carol Lea Benjamin - Mother Knows Best-The Natural Way to Train your Dog. Maybe you could find it and make it a gift for your friend.