Gender and pro cycling

[spazzdog]

I think the "reason" that sent me reeling was the one about her being able to see and assess the course with "guy eyes".

To take that one to a more light-hearted point, isn't it women who always yell about men who have no sense of direction and their refusal to ask directions. Are these the "guy eyes" we're talking about?

As to the whole hormonal thing... oh, yeah. Their strength and bone density decline big time with the addition of estrogen and deletion of testosterone.

If anyone has the magazine, give the article a read and let us know what you think.

[singletrackmind]

Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?

When I raced people used to call me the chick that rides like a guy. I'd fling myself at anything, quickest route possible and pass other women who were off the bike-it won me a lot of races. That's prolly what they mean by "guy eyes"?

[singletrackmind]

http://outside.away.com/outside/feat..._dumaresq.html
an old article-interesting.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...eDumaresq.html
and another.

[Irulan]

the article clarifies that while you must list the sex stated on your birth certificate, TG folks are permitted to have that listing changed once the surgery is completed.

~irulan

[spazzdog]

singletrack... the Bike mag article is also about Michelle Dumaresq and that history up to now.

thanks for the additional links!

spazz

[MightyMitre]

From the article posted by singletrackmind:

"Today, we all fight against doping and try to be natural athletes," says 26-year-old French downhiller Anne-Caroline Chausson, who won her seventh world championship in 2003. "Don't we open a door for genetically modified athletes—or worse? Why not clone Carl Lewis to race against Marion Jones?"

Are they suggesting TG folks are genetically modified? That's pretty offensive.


Earlier I was talking about how I thought a TG rider may have unfair advantages, having still got male genes etc, but dope testing - esp. that for testosterone which is VERY easy to spot - just blows that argument out of the water. A TG rider would be required to have the correct levels of testosterone for her sex, along with all the other competitors in her cat.

[annerol]

thanks to all of you for an interesting and thought-provoking thread. when I first read the inital opening comment, I jumped to conclusions. Then, as I read, my thoughts evolved as I read through your comments. I still see it as a many-sided situation, but feel so much more open / educated / tolerant.
Thanks!
Anne

[Trek420]

singletrackmind "Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?"

Funny, I wasn't thinking of aggresision at all I was thinking of spatial sense. My ex partner, a very butch gal which is very different from FTM she had no gender identity issues at all whatsoever so this is off-the-off-the-subject but she used to kid me "no, you're not butch at all, don't kid yourself, you have no spatial sense".

That's true, faced for example with a small car trunk and multiple suitcases I'm at a total loss. On the other hand I have a photo somewhere (one I haven't torn up jk) of her in front of her PT crusiser trunk with about 4 people's stuff neatly fit.

I don't think you can generalise about even this: plenty of women architects, engineers, in construction these days and we know that the lack of them in the past had to do with prejuidice in the fields not a lack of spatial sense.

But do men see space differently, "can I ride between that rock and the tree?"

[LBTC]

this is a great discussion! way to go TE forum!!

okay, so first, about spatial sense. I am no engineer or architect (maybe I should have been?) but I used to pack our 2 door tracker after a trip to vancouver with all our bedding and overpacking, for the return trip home after shopping at IKEA and Costco. DH calls me the packing queen... The point I make here is - if being able to pack tons of stuff into a small space is spatial sense, I've got it in spades!!

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!) I've often said that we women mostly are just not as used to having something between our legs

I'm not arguing that Michelle shouldn't have the right to race, I think she's cool and am impressed with her results. (and love that she's wearing a jersey from the shop where DH bought his bike, probably the same shop that will finally fit my road bike for me in a few weeks) Racing at that level takes many many attributes, tons of work and a determination that I'll never have. I think I'm just trying to understand that concept of "man eyes", and whatever else people might complain about.

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

By the way, thank you to Melody and Spazzdog for enlightening me. I've learned a lot more about people who have undergone this transition. It makes it much easier to understand.

Namaste,
~T~

[fixedgeargirl]

Welcome to TE, chelle!! I think you'll find that your presence, insight and experience will always be welcome and RESPECTED here. Thanks for joining us!


I'm late to the discussion, but LBTC makes an interesting point here:

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!)

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

LBTC was forbidden to ride in the trees!!!! How many times did we who were *born and raised* girls hear "be careful, don't get hurt, don't get dirty, and another good one for mtb'ers: don't fall"!! As if!!! Like getting hurt, bleeding, crying would just be the end of the world? Researchers have found that parents give these words of caution to girls much more often than they do to boys, delicate maidens that we are .

Point being, Michelle's activities as a boy most likely do factor into her riding, the way her psyche handles these situations. But that's a function of nurture, not nature. Like the girls LBTC sees doing tricks with the boys, like the 8 year old girls I've seen skiing the double blacks, it's all about what you are allowed/expected to do. Those early, repeated messages sink in deep, and can be hard to shake.

Keep winning, Michelle!! Maybe you are here to serve a bigger purpose in your role (chosen or not) as the "posterchild" for the trans-gender community. That can't be easy. But it is important. These issues must be discussed, hashed out, studied, whatever. Kudos to you for standing up and standing out !!!!

[chelle]

It's true, of course that as a kid I had the experiences and expectations of a boy but that's not to say some other women didn't have the same experience. Missy Giove grew up in Brooklyn playing with all the boys. Anne Caroline Chausson was a bmx champ at 7. These women had the encouragement at an early age to "play like the boys" and they went on to achieve great things. I'm so happy when I see a parent encourage their little girl to do things the boys traditionally do like get dirty. Times are changing. I've said jokingly "don't blame me, blame your parents" All through my youth my parents bought my siblings and I what ever sporting equiptment we wanted. They said that they would rather buy us a bike or a hockey stick than have us wandering bored and getting into trouble.

[LBTC]

thank goodness there are moms and dads out there that encourage their kids to do whatever they love!! (riding in the trees was not the only thing I was forbidden to do...heh) The rest of us just start out behind. Nothing a lot of focus and determination can't fix.



glad you've joined us, chelle!

Namaste,
~T~