Gender and pro cycling

[MightyMitre]

I live in Brighton, which is pretty much the unofficial gay capital of England. Each year we have a HUGE pride march in August which attracts thousands of people and it's fantastic. A lot of shops and restaurants round here sport the rainbow badge in their windows, there are a lot of gay clubs, the best being called Cruise (which is I think is a great name for a club.) Gay men and women are very open here, holding hands, kissing, doing the kind of things everyone does. I love living here - mainly for the fantastic diversity of people.

There was a case a few years ago in England about Time Trialling, where among other things the regulations specify you provide your gender as at birth, which would obviously be problematic for a TG competetor. I didn't follow the story right to the end, but basically the girl in question argued that although born male she was now female and should therefore compete against other women, not men.

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

In my current ignorant state, I could understand how, if a girl found herself on the startline with someone who was TG - they may be suspicious that the TG rider may have an unfair physical advantage because they still have male genes.

Would this really be the case?

[Melody]

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

There's no shame at ignorance. It just means you don't know.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

Nope. Without the continued testosterone in the system, the muscles begin to atrophy and it requires a considerably more amount of training and exercise for them just to keep what they had. Add in estrogen and muscle strength goes down. Remove the testosterone factory, and it goes poof. (sorry about any mental images )

In my current ignorant state, this is what would concern me if I found myself on the startline with someone who was TG - the idea that they may have an unfair physical advantage because they have male genes.

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.

Now, I've got am FTM (Female to Male) friend and he's the opposite. He's of small stature, but strong muscles, which would give him an advantage in some sports.

Mel

[slinkedog]

Well, the only reason I would see for there to be a problem is with the possibilities that MM stated. But if the hormones equal out or even diminish the aerobic/muscular advantage that a biological male would have, then who cares??

[spazzdog]

I think the "reason" that sent me reeling was the one about her being able to see and assess the course with "guy eyes".

To take that one to a more light-hearted point, isn't it women who always yell about men who have no sense of direction and their refusal to ask directions. Are these the "guy eyes" we're talking about?

As to the whole hormonal thing... oh, yeah. Their strength and bone density decline big time with the addition of estrogen and deletion of testosterone.

If anyone has the magazine, give the article a read and let us know what you think.

[singletrackmind]

Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?

When I raced people used to call me the chick that rides like a guy. I'd fling myself at anything, quickest route possible and pass other women who were off the bike-it won me a lot of races. That's prolly what they mean by "guy eyes"?

[singletrackmind]

http://outside.away.com/outside/feat..._dumaresq.html
an old article-interesting.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...eDumaresq.html
and another.

[Irulan]

the article clarifies that while you must list the sex stated on your birth certificate, TG folks are permitted to have that listing changed once the surgery is completed.

~irulan

[Trek420]

singletrackmind "Isn't "guy eyes" testosteronitude? Dudes going for lines a lot of women don't feel comfortable with?"

Funny, I wasn't thinking of aggresision at all I was thinking of spatial sense. My ex partner, a very butch gal which is very different from FTM she had no gender identity issues at all whatsoever so this is off-the-off-the-subject but she used to kid me "no, you're not butch at all, don't kid yourself, you have no spatial sense".

That's true, faced for example with a small car trunk and multiple suitcases I'm at a total loss. On the other hand I have a photo somewhere (one I haven't torn up jk) of her in front of her PT crusiser trunk with about 4 people's stuff neatly fit.

I don't think you can generalise about even this: plenty of women architects, engineers, in construction these days and we know that the lack of them in the past had to do with prejuidice in the fields not a lack of spatial sense.

But do men see space differently, "can I ride between that rock and the tree?"

[LBTC]

this is a great discussion! way to go TE forum!!

okay, so first, about spatial sense. I am no engineer or architect (maybe I should have been?) but I used to pack our 2 door tracker after a trip to vancouver with all our bedding and overpacking, for the return trip home after shopping at IKEA and Costco. DH calls me the packing queen... The point I make here is - if being able to pack tons of stuff into a small space is spatial sense, I've got it in spades!!

however, on the bike, it took *years* for me to gain the ability to see the "lines" the guys see, to feel comfortable pulling a wheelie (still not good at it), to feel no fear flinging myself through a rough patch or a steep area (and that's still not as often as the guys do). I've always attributed this primarily to my lack of history on the bike. As a kid I didn't get the opportunity to ride my bike as often or in the same conditions as the boys (seriously, I was forbidden from riding it in the trees!!) I've often said that we women mostly are just not as used to having something between our legs

I'm not arguing that Michelle shouldn't have the right to race, I think she's cool and am impressed with her results. (and love that she's wearing a jersey from the shop where DH bought his bike, probably the same shop that will finally fit my road bike for me in a few weeks) Racing at that level takes many many attributes, tons of work and a determination that I'll never have. I think I'm just trying to understand that concept of "man eyes", and whatever else people might complain about.

The article had a lot of references to her boyhood, the amount of time she spent on her bike, the type of riding she did as a boy...I think that's an advantage for her. But it's not something that a girl couldn't have done, so it really has nothing to do with the issue, right? I've known young girls who are out there just as much as the neighbourhood boys, so, just because I missed out on making fearless biking as natural as breathing, doesn't mean that all women would have to.

By the way, thank you to Melody and Spazzdog for enlightening me. I've learned a lot more about people who have undergone this transition. It makes it much easier to understand.

Namaste,
~T~

[MightyMitre]

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.
Mel

Never really occured to me but that would make sense...

Certainly in the UK it can be a very long and tiring battle, taking years, to even to get to the first discussions with doctors about surgery, so I'm guessing that the guts, sticking power and determination someone would need to undergo reassingment would spill over into the sports arena.

People may sneer at a TG competitor on the podium and make claimes that is just a 'boy with boobs' - but could they claim to have the same level of deterimination and committment...?

[MightyMitre]

Eeek - just read my reply and it sounds seriously patronising.

What I mean is, if you've had to work extremely hard in one area of your life, chance are you're not afraid of hard work and are more likey to have the right mentality to make you a winner on and off the cycle track.