Ladies, women, girls....

[Bad JuJu]

For years, I was practically militant about this. I insisted on being called a woman by everyone in every situation and anyone who didn't comply got a lecture. Well, now that I'm in my enlightened mid-50s, I've relaxed a bit and realize that, as Zen said, it's situational. Older people and many southern men use "lady" as a term of respect, and that I can live with.

What still bugs me, though, is being called "girl." Many people just assume that I prefer to be thought of as younger than I am--which I don't. Guess you could say I'm on a personal mission to fight the perception that younger is better and we should all want to look and seem younger than we are. I can't stand that.

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves. Sometimes we talk about this in class, but it seems like a losing battle. I just have to remind myself that language comes and goes, like fashion, and the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way.

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[lyca]

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves.

I've noticed this, too. I work with a university Women's Glee Club as part of my assistantship and have found that they almost ALWAYS refer to each other as "girls". I think for them, and for many younger and college age women, it is a term of endearment...a bonding thing. They also embrace "women", but don't use that term as often when addressing each other.

In rehearsal situations, I almost always address the women in my groups (regardless of age...from grade school to my adult choir) and "ladies" and the men as "gentlemen". Of course, someone in the tenor section will usually raise his hand and ask if I want them to sing, too, since I only asked for the "gentlemen".

[SouthernBelle]

I think it's situational. Most groups of women refer to themselves as 'girls' in social situations. We Southerners use lady rather interchangably.

Several years ago a group of us girls were on the gulf and took a morning fishing trip. The captain referred to us as girls and then quickly back-pedaled, not wishing to offend. I laughed and told him we were old enough to appreciate being called girls since we really weren't anymore.

[LBTC]

Well, I guess I'm with Kimmy and am very good at using the wrong words inadvertently. In the situation KG described, I would probably have used the word girl more than anything. I can picture myself shouting encouragement in the form of go, girl, go. But when talking about them, I would more likely be saying "look at her go" "she looks strong" "she's reeling him in" "isn't she in the lead?" etc. Yes, it seems I use more pronouns than nouns. Perhaps I am instinctively avoiding the whole dilemma of woman vs lady, neither of which I like the sounds of. Oh, yes, I have definitely been known to use the words, chick, dudette, chica and babe to describe women, specifically athletes that I see or know, but generally I keep these terms close - talking with DH, or close girlfriends.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[PscyclePath]

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Foreign languages have their own nuances, too... I remember that in German, the proper reference is Frau (plural Frauen) or Fraulein, occasionally Dame or Damen (plural). (hint, the feminine restroom is labelled Damen, good for a joke or two with the new guys who can't tell the difference betwen "da Men" and "Herren" (which is how the little boys' room is labeled, btw.) but that's a whole 'nother story.) Using the term for female, weib, or weibliche, is considered derogatory in polite circles, and is usually refereing to livestock.

But then again in gender non-specific circles, I confess that I'm one of those who typically refers to everyone as "guys," regardless of age or gender.

Tom

[lph]

Oh my, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended by someone here saying "Go, girl!"

Among friends (you're all friends ) it's fine, but precisely because it does imply familiarity I don't appreciate it in a work setting with someone I'm NOT "familiar" with.

But I think actually "girl" is used more in Norway (in Norwegian of course...) than in the States. Sports journalists are known for calling female athletes "girls", "the girls team" when they would never call the male ones "boys".

And I completely agree with whoever said that it shouldn't have to be a compliment that one looks younger than one is. I mean, you should be gracious and accept a compliment as it's meant anyway, but I'd prefer to just be able to be a girl, a young woman, a woman and then an old woman without any negative associations connected to the terms.

PS. So to the old-school gentlemen who instead of asking my age say "well, one should never ask a lady her age..." I just go "It's ok, I'm no lady, and I'm 38."

[Zen]

I thought we crashed the board, Starfish

[Xrayted]

I remember being in middle school and high school (20+ yrs ago) during softball or basketball games, everytime one of us would get a great hit, or throw someone out or land a nice layup, we'd all yell "You woman, you!!!" Even our parents got into the act. It was a battle cry of female fierceness for us. Till this day, the only ones I can still say that to and not get the hairy eyeball are those particular women.
I usually joke when called a lady that "you don't know me well enough to know if I'm a lady or not." I grew up in FL where it was common to say sir, ma'am... out of repect. In the NE, if you call a woman under the age of 45 "ma'am", you get nasty looks.
I agree that in a sport setting or anywhere where the tone is professional, the word woman should be used. Lady has it's own spot for certain occasions. Girl is used only between very close friends. "You go girl" however is never allowed.

I do manage to slip sometimes, I have to admit. I errantly used the "young lady" on DGF just last night and got a look that could strip paint off the wall.

[Kimmyt]

Oh dear, I guess I've probably been offending everyone right and left. I call people dude (male AND female), chick, chickie, chickadee (from my mom), girl, girlie, lady, without thought. I never call them that in a derogatory way (why? is it derogatory? I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said).

I mean, heck, if I'm going to try to insult someone by using a name, I'm gonna use one a lot more powerful than lady....

Now, it does bug me when men refer to women as girls sometimes (and I clarify this with sometimes, because I don't mind if The Boy asks me if I'm hanging out with 'the girls'... woops there I go, referring to a Man as a Boy). When a man uses the word girl dismissively it's got a completely different feel to it.

I apologize to everyone in this forum I've said 'you go girl' to!

[lyca]

I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said.

I do think it has a lot to do with context and culture. Personally, I wouldn't call someone I didn't know very well by any diminutive (nickname, variation of 'girl', whatever) but in my own personal circle I call my friends by many names.

And yeah, I seem to recall shouting "you go girl!" to my TV screen during movies...sporting events...speeches...the evening news... I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere, coined that phrase and it has become part of our modern verbal heritage, so to speak. Kind of like a cliche...something that everyone recognizes...I could be wrong, though.

[DebW]

I definitely prefer "women", and cringe if someone says "ladies". I grew up with a mother telling me to "be lady-like" and to "walk like a lady" and those things just never fit me. To me, a lady is a stereotype that I have no interest in emulating and couldn't if I tried. But as others have said, it's often situational or cultural, so I usually just let it roll off me.

I think that the use of women vs girls in many cases really implies an underlying attitude. When I was in college on the east coast in the 70s, female students were universally referred to by administration/faculty/peers as women and treated as adults. Where my sister went to college in the midwest, they were referred to as girls and treated more like children in need of supervision/protection.

[Tuckervill]

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Woman is a loaded word, too, given the context and the tone of voice. My ex-husband used it as a warning when he was mad at me. (Guess why he's my ex?) So you know, it does have a connotation. I don't know if that's a Southern thing or not.

As I said, I try to use it. I don't mind if another woman calls me a "girl" but if a man says it, no matter his age, and especially if he's not much older than me, it really ticks me off.

Karen