replenish glycogen vs. eating late

[li10up]

Basic guideline is that a healthy, active adult will need between 2000 and 2200 calories a day to maintain their weight. Since you're eating at most 800-1000 calories a day, your body is panicking. The not being hungry you're experiencing is anorexia (loss of appetite). If you keep eating at the levels you are, you may qualify for an anorexia nervosa diagnosis. Don't do that! You can lose bone density from that disease, you'll get sick more easily, and all manner of other stuff will come and bite you in the *** later.

Please eat. You need food.

This made me smile. A 170 pound anorexic.

I think most everyone is missing some of what I'm saying. Currently I DO eat when I get home. So after my recovery drink of choc. milk I'm at 1200 cal. for the day SO FAR. Then I decided to eat something small. Some toast with peanut butter. The next thing I know I'm sitting down with a bag of chips...even though they are "light" it's still chips. Once I start eating it's like I can't stop. Plus with all the eating out, about 4 times a week, I'm afraid I'm never going to drop any of this weight. That's why I'm wondering if not eating at all when I get home would be better. But I don't want to have dead legs or no energy for my ride the next evening. So eat or don't eat?

[indigoiis]

Basically, it doesn't matter when you eat.
It matters what you eat, and the amount you eat.
Considering you have 6-8 hours a night of non-eating, I recommend you eat so that you can fill that last portion of your caloric day. Plan your day in advance.

Use fitday.com to plan out a 2000 calorie day for the days that you ride. For the days that you don't ride, plan for the restaurant meal (let's say, 600 calories max?) with little tiny meals leading up to it.

So you could stagger your calories like this, for example, for weight loss:

Sunday: ride 15+ miles, eat 2100 cals
Monday: jog 5 miles, eat 1800 cals
Tuesday: weights or yoga, eat 1750 cals (restaurant night)
Wednesday: ride 10-15 miles, eat 2000 cals
Thursday: walk fast pace 3 miles, eat 1700 cals (restaurant night)
Friday: ride 20-30 miles, eat 2200 cals
Saturday: day off - eat 2400 (more or less) cals, relax.

Trust me, when you eat more, you will actually lose weight. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but you have to re-feed to get back your metabolism before you can expect your weight to get out of the plateau it is in.

Try it for a week or two, see if you don't have more energy, and see if you don't start shedding the weight, before you post that you can't believe it.

[KnottedYet]

This made me smile. A 170 pound anorexic.

Anorexia is a behaviour, not a weight.

The ones we hear about on the news are the ones who get so emaciated that they make a sensational story.

Knot-formerly-anorexic-then-fat-now-healthy-and-planning-to-stay-that-way

[Kano]

I think most everyone is missing some of what I'm saying. Currently I DO eat when I get home. So after my recovery drink of choc. milk I'm at 1200 cal. for the day SO FAR. Then I decided to eat something small. Some toast with peanut butter. The next thing I know I'm sitting down with a bag of chips...even though they are "light" it's still chips. Once I start eating it's like I can't stop.

I know what you're talking about. On days when I don't eat enough during the day, when I start eating, that slice of bread with a proper serving of peanut butter on it is the tip of an iceberg. That "triggers something" you mentioned earlier is self preservation. Whatever food you've allowed yourself during the day has had to do -- it's all there was available. Now you're home, and the pantry is there, and your inner animal has found food and MUST feed itself. Since it hasn't had enough food, it insists on extra cuz who knows how long til you find more!

On days more like today, I eat plenty during the day, and didn't NEED to eat a burger AND fries in the evening. Now, of course, I DID, and pretty much always do eat those fries, cuz they're there. And I eat every single one of them, cuz they're there. THAT is the behavior I want to change most.

It's sort of a balance thing -- if we spread those evening calories out during the day, say you're more at 1800 for the day after the chocolate milk, then perhaps the toast and peanut butter will do it for you! (and I don't mean eat a bag of chips during the day....)

Oooh, something else I noticed about balance.

V8 juice -- carbs
nonfat yogurt -- high carbs
coffee -- nothing in it, unless you're putting cream/sugar
rice bowl -- LOTS of carbs. (the ones I recently changed my mind about have 78g. carbohydrate, about the same calories you mentioned)
gel -- carbs
chocolate milk -- carbs.

There's a bit of protein in the rice bowl, depending on the other ingredients, and some in the milk. Might be a little bit of fat in the rice bowl and depending on the type of milk you make the chocolate milk out of...

You NEED fats and proteins along with those carbs, girl: muscle isn't built of carb, it just burns it.

Hey! I know this stuff! It's in my head! Why the heck am I so inept at applying it???

Karen in Boise

[shawnada]

I agree with all the advice, but Kanos rang truer with me. Alot of carb eating going on that is mostly processed sugar. Chocolate milk, gels, yogurt (look at the grams of sugar in your yogurt and then look at grams of carbs. Its usually the same amount. Our body has no use for sugar but to store as body fat, unless your burning so many calories through intense exercise. We need protein to maintain our muscles especially if there is higher intensity workouts and carbs are for energy. Whats your energy output in your evening rides? Take in a protein source for muscle recovery after your ride and leave the carbs for morning. Your body is not going to burn off the carbs you eat right before bed but to store as body fat. Especially if you are trying to lose weight. Wheres your fruits and vegetables in all of this. We all need a variety of nutritious nutrients.

[li10up]

Anorexia is a behaviour, not a weight.

The ones we hear about on the news are the ones who get so emaciated that they make a sensational story.

Knot-formerly-anorexic-then-fat-now-healthy-and-planning-to-stay-that-way

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to make light of it. It's just that at 170 pounds and the amount of food I eat I just had to smile at the thought of me being anorexic. No harm intended.

Kano, I see what you mean. There are a lot of carbs there. However the rice bowl I eat is 15F, 43C, and 18P. So it's a pretty good mix. Also, there is some protein in the yogurt and milk and some fat in the choc milk. But still, it's probably not as well rounded as it should be. Sometimes that's easier to see when someone else points it out. That sounds like a good idea...try to eat more during the day and maybe that switch won't be triggered at night. Thanks for your input.

Thanks to everyone else too. I've never been a dieter except for once before when I lost 40 pounds back in 2003. Now I've gained a lot of it back...at least it took a few years...and I just can't seem to get it under control again.

[onimity]

Our body has no use for sugar but to store as body fat, unless your burning so many calories through intense exercise.

This is patently false; Carbohydrates fuel a lot more than working muscle and are a vital part of a balanced diet. They get a bad rap because they are not 'trendy' diet-wise but they are essential *especially* during and after intense exercise. Protein and fats are essential too.

I do agree with the advice to eat fewer processed foods and to eat some fruits and vegetables.

My advice would be to not analyze it so much. Take a step back and listen to your body. Eat when you are hungry, stop eating when you are satisfied. Repeat.

You don't mention what you are eating when you eat out, that could make a big difference. If you are starving yourself regularly and then binging on fast food (or other calorie-dense food) then it is no wonder that you are struggling. Imagine, for example, that your employer suddenly starts giving you 1/3 to 1/2 the amount of your normal checks. Do you react by blowing your savings in the good faith that you'll get the missing money back? Or do you start to limit your expenditures and save everything you can? And when the employer comes good with the extra $$$ eventually, do you go on a shopping spree or save it thinking that the pattern might repeat itself? Your body is designed to store fat so that you have energy reserves when you need them and by limiting what you eat you keep telling your body that it needs to worry about a food shortage.

Personally I avoid fast food and high fructose corn syrup. I stay away from things with ingredients I don't recognize and otherwise eat whatever I please. And yes, I eat like a horse too, that's natural if you're expending a lot of energy on your bike or otherwise and it's necessary to maintain it. (It is 8:45 AM here and I've already had over 1,000 calories)

My opinion is that if you continue feeling guilty when you do eat and try to rationalize starving your body you will continue to have the same problems that you are having. Food is not your enemy, it is the fuel that sustains your body and until you develop a happy relationship with it not much is going to change.

And yes, you can be 170 lbs and anorexic.

[li10up]

onimity- thanks, you had many good points. Since I eat 1200 calories by 8pm I don't feel I'm starving myself or putting my body in preservation mode. I'm eating after 8pm currently so I feel I'm easily taking in plenty of calories. Just to clarify, I DO NOT eat fast food. However, I do not do a very good job at denying myself the good stuff (read, the bad stuff) at a restaurant. I know that is my biggest weakness. Chinese food every Tuesday for lunch, Mexican every Friday evening and then whatever looks good, usually Italian, on Saturday and Sunday. My riding isn't enough to make up for what I'm eating.

So that's why I'm asking about glycogen replacement. Does it really take 24 hours to replenish glycogen stores? If I don't eat an evening meal but eat a larger lunch or more snacks will that replenish my glycogen quickly enough and allow me to ride strong on my evening ride?

shawnada - I think I know what you are saying about sugar...you're talking about simple sugar vs. carbs right? Yes we need carbs but we need the complex variety, not the simple sugars, right?

Shoot, I just need someone to order for me at the restaurant!! No will-power here.

[onimity]

If it makes you feel better, the way you eat in restaurants is exactly how I eat most days. I *love* the so-called bad stuff. And I enjoy it which makes it all the better. I just don't subscribe to the clean plate club. I eat as much as my body needs, and when I start saying things like 'I'm really full but this is *so* good, I know I've had enough. I think it is easier to do when you let yourself eat that sort of food -- in moderation -- whenever you please. Makes for good leftovers too.

As for the glycogen bit, I am no expert on it, but I notice that if I don't eat enough after a ride (I ride to and from work so I have to deal with evenings too) I have much less energy/endurance the next day.

Yesterday was a good example. After probably 2,000+ calories during the day, I rode to a hair apt. after work & was getting ready to order Italian food for dinner there when my sister (& roommate) came in limping with some serious road rash. She'd crashed her bike on the way in and wanted to go home right away. So I skipped plans to order food and headed out to the drug store to get some gauze pads, etc. while our hairdresser drove her to the bus stop. By the time I got home it was well after 9:00 and I'd ridden a tough 15 miles or so in a strong headwind (which knocked me over twice.) I was HUNGRY. But my sis needed help cleaning it all up and by the time we were done I needed to be in bed (had to get up at 5:30). So I had a big glass of milk and some fruit, but only a fraction of what I normally eat. This morning my ride to work was *awful* in spite of my normal breakfast. I granny-geared my way up hills that I usually kill, I felt like I had no energy. I took my road bike and got to work more slowly than I usually do on my MTB.

Now that *could* have been caused by anything, but it seems that I feel similarly any time I cut myself short on calories after exercise, especially hard exercise. I don't know about the 24 hour bit, I've read that the majority of glycogen replenishment happens within a short period of time after exercise. You pretty much want to get off the bike and have something with carbs and protein. A big glass of milk is a good choice for that, but I usually eat something else too & continue until I fall into bed.

Anne

[Crankin]

1200 calories by 8 PM is not exactly a lot. You need more! And if you are cycling, you will need to have some of those carbs. And I don't think there is any other way to say it, but there has to be a certain degree of will power when you eat out. I go to restaurants a lot, too. I also ride a lot, and do other sports, but not at an extreme level (I rode 3,000 miles last year, mostly in rides of 15-50 miles). Tell the wait staff not to bring bread to the table if you think you can't stop at one piece. I have found if I order a steak or fish, as opposed to fancier things with lots of fattening sides, I'm better off with the protein. Mexican-- 2 chicken enchiladas, no sour cream, no cheese on top. Black beans instead of refried, unless you know the refried are not made with lard (most are). Or find a Mexican place that does REAL Mexican, not Americanized stuff. You will find lots of fish there, with pretty healthy veggie sauces. I used to eat Chinese once a week; I can't do that anymore. The salt and fat will make me gain 2-3 pounds overnight. Go for Japanese instead; much healthier. And no dessert except for once in awhile. Instead, eat one piece of really good dark chocolate after dinner every night. It pretty much takes away any cravings. As far as the junk food goes (chips), just don't buy them. If there's nothing like that in the house, then the worst that will happen is that you'll eat a bowl of cereal or have a piece of bread, which pretty much takes away any cravings.
Not trying to lecture, but I lost about 30 pounds when I was in my mid twenties by just eating healthy, balanced foods, not changing my going out habits, and exercising. I weighed more than I did when I was 9 months pregnant! Two pregnancies and 28 years later I weigh what I did in high school. I don't believe in fad diets or starving yourself, but I find that I do have to be vigilant and to take into account times when I am going to be at restaurants as opposed to at home.

[indysteel]

J-

Here are some articles from Monique Ryan's "Feedzone" series on Velonews.com that might provide some helpful information. Remember, however, that there's training and then there's training. Some of the dietary guidelines out there for replenishing glycogen stores are for people who are doing some serious training. For the rest of us, eating a sensible, well-balanced diet, along with plenty of water, is usually enough IMO. The only time I worry too much about it is before morning rides, when I know I need to replenish my liver glycogen stores after what amounts to a fast during sleep. I, too, like my post-ride chocolate milk, but I make a point of drinking it only when I have a high mileage week planned or am doing long/intense rides back to back.

http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/9885.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/7985.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/7985.0.html
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/10021.0.html

Just a few additional thoughts: I think you could safely eliminate your pre-ride gel and your Gatorade for rides less than two hours. Your afternoon snack and water should be sufficient. That will save some calories that could be "better spent" on more nutrient dense foods. I further agree that you should eat something after your evening rides. I realize that you often end up bingeing when you do, but skipping meals is not the answer to that problem unforutunately and will likely either just slow your metabolism down and/or lead to bingeing a day or two later because you feel deprived.

I agree that you likely need more fruits, veggies and lean meat and complex carbs. With respect to the latter, simple sugars (like those found in gels) have their place in your diet, but they're better left for on-the-bike energy. Otherwise, stick to complex carbs like brown rice, whole grains, beans and veggies. They take longer to digest, don't lead to spikes in blood sugar, are more nutrient dense and provide fiber for the health of your digestive tract. They'll make you feel full for a longer period of time.

I know this may sound overly simplistic, but if you think less about food as either something you deny or indulge yourself, and more about it as fuel to do what you want to do and live the kind of life you want to live, you might find it easier to make healthier choices. It further sounds like you need to get your husband on board with your dietary goals. It saddens me to hear that your legitimate weight loss goals are eclipsed by his desire to eat out. Perhaps there is some room for compromise in your routine, e.g., you will agree to eat out one night during the week and weekend, but not four. I realize it's easy for me to say this, but let him sulk. Does he, by chance, have issues with food and/or his weight?

K-

[li10up]

I know this may sound overly simplistic, but if you think less about food as either something you deny or indulge yourself, and more about it as fuel to do what you want to do and live the kind of life you want to live, you might find it easier to make healthier choices. It further sounds like you need to get your husband on board with your dietary goals. It saddens me to hear that your legitimate weight loss goals are eclipsed by his desire to eat out. Perhaps there is some room for compromise in your routine, e.g., you will agree to eat out one night during the week and weekend, but not four. I realize it's easy for me to say this, but let him sulk. Does he, by chance, have issues with food and/or his weight?
K-

Wow, you really got me on this one. You made me realize something that I wouldn't/couldn't do before. My DH has a type of cancer for which currently there is no cure. He has already lived past what was expected and is still doing well. But after he was diagnosed he gained quite a bit of weight. I think it was kind of, "If I'm going to die then I might as well eat whatever the heck I want to." He started walking and cutting out sweets a few months ago (on the verge of diabetes) and dropped about 20 pounds. He has slacked off here recently and is starting to put some of the weight back on. But I think that since I know how much he enjoys going out to eat and that we may not be able to do it forever it makes me feel guilty if I don't eat when/where he wants to eat. Seems like I'm usually eating on his time schedule on the weekends. I've talked about changing the Tuesday Chinese and the Friday Mexican but he tells me how much he enjoys them...especially now that he has quit working...he looks forward to them and our time together. It seems selfish of me to deprive him of this simple thing. Wow, I've really got to think about this.

[shawnada]

We are ultimately the ones responsible for what we put in our bodies. We either make good choices or allow outside influences to sabotage us.

[indysteel]

He has a type of cancer that has no cure? OMG. I feel like a schmuck. I had no idea. My heart goes out to both of you of course.

It sounds like you need a good heart to heart about this. I understand your desire not to deprive him of something he enjoys, but at the same time, your own health is important, notwithstanding his own health issues. I think it's very natural to put his interests ahead of yours under the circumstances, but I still think there is room for compromise. If he loves you--and I assume he does--he'll want to make your well being, as well as his own, a priority.

Hugs,

K

[KnottedYet]

Try eating real breakfasts and lunches, then when you go out maybe you won't be so incredibly hungry and you can order just a small dinner.

Eating disorders are often subconcious attempts to control at least something, when something else is out of control. If you feel like you can't get your food issues resolved on your own, please get a nutritionist or someone to help you with it.

The less stress you are under, the better your remaining time with your husband. I'm very sorry about his health.