Faster?

[Kano]

Well now I have a question.....

upping speed.....

Bike's faster, I'm stronger, and a hair lighter (I think some fell out, Raven, which compensates for it being longer, yes? ), but my average speed really hasn't improved this year over the later part of last year, at least not yet.

Hills still slow me WAY down, and according to DH, it takes a LOT of miles of 20+ mph to make up for that 1 - 1.5 miles of 3-6mph.

I'll go up a mile long hill at an occasional top speed of 8.5 mph.

(if a hill is a mile long, is it a mountain?)

Granted, this is lots faster than the 3.5 I was struggling to reach last year, but that 8.5 is rare and for just a few feet, and the 3.5 threatens on a fairly regular basis. 5-6 is more like something I can maintain for some distance on most of my hill climbs, and thrills the heck out of me for two reasons: it's a huge speed improvement AND I'm actually getting up hills I couldn't last year!

(last year, I rode up hills chanting to myself: "I hate hills, I hate hills, I hate hills." At some point I realized that it's all hills, and I needed to change that mantra to "I will not hate hills" and now I've decided they're something to celebrate!)

Then I read about those of you who seem to climb mountains like molehills. I used to feel bad when I read those posts, (not your faults, ladies!) until I started thinking things through and realized you've got more experience than I. I started seeing pictures of you, and you're much smaller than me. And I realized it didn't matter that I don't ride like you. YET. I'm a beginner. Once you who are my idols were beginners too, and probably struggled with many of the same issues I have and will continue to discover.

So anyway, while I know I'm getting stronger, and am able to generate more speed than I did a year ago, doesn't matter which of my two bikes I ride (I like my dainty blue road bike way better though for many reasons!) am I stuck with these 12-13mph average speeds until I drop those other 50# or so that I carry around on my rides?

Or is it that I'm doing more to seek out climbs now that I have figured out that I CAN do them, and that they will make me stronger? Would it make a difference if I would just find those flat stretches where I can simply go like the wind forever and avoid climbing like the plague, then I would have some of these amazing sounding average speeds?

Is THAT why y'all ladies who write about "only" 17-18mph averages are so fast? You stay away from hills of any sort, and like my bike, you "weigh air"? Or is it that you have fancy computers that shut down the "averager thingie" for your speed as soon as they sense a positive incline? (and if so, where can I get one of those?)

And now another question that just popped into my head: I'm not sure I've seen my "mountain goat idols" posting their speed info? Maybe you ladies avoid these discussions of "I go this fast" ??? Those of you who regularly do climbs like Mimi's amazing ride last weekend: if 17-18 are "only" averages, do you have "miserable" average speeds too?

Disclaimer: I'm PROUD of my speeds at this point -- big improvement over last year at this time. It took me about 800 miles of riding to get from about 8mph to 12-13mph. I think that my being "stuck" at this speed for the last almost 700 miles is the difference in where I ride now. The only reason I choose the word "miserable" to describe this is because of the descriptives that go with what I think of as truly amazing "onlies"!!!

Now, questions of my own asked, I do have some input on the original question:

"Is it naturally going to happen as I ride more and more, getting stronger with each ride, and pushing myself a little bit more each time I ride, OR is it something you really have to work at?"

I think about "the early days" often, and mention them to DH too: remember how we used to get so excited about 10mph on this or that stretch of road? I remember being hugely excited about having raised our average average to about 10 - 10.5 after a few months on our bikes. So yes, I do think time in the saddle, even without things like the interval training and sprinting that have been written about here, will help you build speed!

Karen in Boise

[indysteel]

Karen, speaking for myself, I don't focus much on my average speeds on climbing rides. They're just a whole other kettle of fish. I live in an area that allows for a lot of flat rides so I only compare apples to apples in determining how fast I'm generally going. If my average ride included hills, I think I'd try to avoid looking at my average speed unless I was comparing different passes over the same route. To measure my climbing "performance," I go more by how the climb or hill "feels," how steadily I paced myself, whether I felt in control, my heartrate, etc.

I would note however, that we don't have long, long climbs (over 2 miles) in my neck of the woods so I don't get to measure my speed or performance on the kind of climbs that our TE members in mountainous states do on a regular basis. I'd love to try though. For me, climbing is the thing I'd most like to be good at. The stuff around here is short and steep as a general rule and those walls of pavement really put the fear of God into me on some days. They take a certain fortitude that I'm just starting to acquire. I would gladly trade a fast ride on the flats for a strong climb.

I think any talk of average speed has to include the caveat that there's no real point in comparing yourself to another rider who might be riding totally different terrain, on a different type of bike, who is younger/older/thinner/heavier/better trained, etc., etc. There are too many variables. The better practice is to compare your own progress, in light of your own goals. For me, I didn't want to be the one bringing up the rear at every ride, so I've worked hard at improving my speed. It's not a goal in and of itself and every time I've gotten too worked up about it, I've had to keep my eye on the bigger picture: that riding my bike at any speed is more fun and better for me that sitting on my couch.

[mimitabby]

Karen
two things. I'd say my average (NOT on hills) is under 12mph. (read my earlier post on this thread)
on hills.... it is miserably slow as we've already discussed.
HOWEVER, my dh was saying to me; just wait those hills that have been bullying you around aren't going to be so bad anymore.
So I rode to work yesterday and going home there's this 8% grade that always bites me. My legs are stiff and sore from Saturday. I start going up the rise, my legs are screaming, but... what? I was done with the hill without the normal hystrionics!!! even sore; that big climb diminished my commute climb!

Raleighdon made a goal last year of some insane number of climbing miles. As a result, he is now faster all over. So as much as we hate the hills, they are our friends. The more hill work we can do, the faster we're going to get.

And a good lighter bike helps too. (Although Raleighdon was riding his 40 lb bike saturday and he was still circling me!)

[SouthernBelle]

If your average hasn't improved, even though you feel your skill has improved, perhaps it is because you are now tackling bigger hills?? If you are progressively tackling tougher routes, and hills you were afraid of before, your average might appear lower.

Um, or not.

[Kano]

Karen
two things. I'd say my average (NOT on hills) is under 12mph. (read my earlier post on this thread)

I remember reading you say that several times over the months. You got 'em too over there in the Seattle area: invisible hills! Those buggers are sneaky!

HOWEVER, my dh was saying to me; just wait those hills that have been bullying you around aren't going to be so bad anymore.
So I rode to work yesterday and going home there's this 8% grade that always bites me. My legs are stiff and sore from Saturday. I start going up the rise, my legs are screaming, but... what? I was done with the hill without the normal hystrionics!!! even sore; that big climb diminished my commute climb!
Raleighdon made a goal last year of some insane number of climbing miles. As a result, he is now faster all over. So as much as we hate the hills, they are our friends. The more hill work we can do, the faster we're going to get.

This is all very exciting -- the whole idea of climbing making ALL of our riding stronger, and that big hills make small hills more manageable, oh yippee, GREAT news!

Karen in Boise

[makbike]

I personally think the more your ride the stronger you become the faster you will go with time. Embrace where you are currently and set a reasonable goal for the week, month, and/or year.

I would also second, third, fourth the suggestions to ride with a group. Having someone to chase is a great motivational tool. I will often pick a group to follow, knowing I won't be able to ride with them for long. However, knowing they are out in front keeps me pumping away as I cruise along. Of course, see others ahead of me also gives me the drive to pick up the pace in an attempt to catch them and better yet pass them if at all possible (I'm a tad bit competitive).

Finally, don't get down on yourself - enjoy your time on your bike and remind yourself of the progress you have made thus far. Again, write down some goals, post them, review them and go for them.

Good luck and enjoy yourself!

[RoadRaven]

"Is it naturally going to happen as I ride more and more, getting stronger with each ride, and pushing myself a little bit more each time I ride, OR is it something you really have to work at?"

Despite being hairs lighter, Kano, you will have to work at it... and work and work and work... it just depends how much faster you want to be and if you have a "fastness level" at which you will be satisfied.

Initially improvements are quick to arrive, it feels easier, more comfortable, takes less effort to get somewhere more quickly. Once your body has adapted to the new demands, it settles in and if you want to go faster you have to push the level occasionally. I outlined a process for this in my first post (oh, and thank you Jiffer for your kind comment ).

The faster you want to go, the more wind resistence you face, therefore the more power your legs have to output in order to maintain or increase your speed. Think about how much faster you can go with no wind, as opposed to riding into a head wind... if you want to maintain the same speed as on a calm day you need to expend more energy...

Here's my example
I now time-trial on a flat course in good conditions at about 31kph. If I double my power output, I could ride at about 40kph, so to get where the level I want be (time-trialling at about 35kph), I need to increase my power output about 70% to achieve a 4-5kph increase in speed.

Now here's the rub... if I ride at 10kph and double my power output, I can ride at about 27-8kph... and increase of 17 kph!!!


On a hill its a matter of doing repetitions... start with two, then three, then five... and remember that each kilogram you lose off you ar your bike will make you 3 seconds faster on a 1km moderate climb
Hope that makes sense...

And to answer your question just one more time... Yes, sorry, but there is no way around it...

[indysteel]

I thought I'd share one of my prouder cycling moments of late. Just a bit of background. I started riding last summer, in part because I was dating someone who was an avid and strong cyclist. He made it look fun and I needed to get off my butt. Two bikes later, I had been bitten by the bug pretty badly and was really enjoying my new life as a "cyclist." But I wasn't in the best of shape and had a long road, so to speak, ahead of me.

My BF and I rode together a few times before the relationship, sadly, ended last fall. I knew he was pretty fast, so riding with me was a bit of an indulgence on his part. He'd ride with his friends in the morning and then we'd ride afterwards. I was more or less his "cool down," and I noted with some degree of chagrin that he marked the rides as "leisure" rather than "training" on Bikejournal.com True enough, but I hated seeing it in print.

Fast forward many months. My ex and I are still friends or, as I like to say, "friends light." We see one another at club rides and email one another about cycling related stuff. I begin to notice on Bikejournal that I was riding more miles than he was (although I have to admit that part of that is because he's also training for sprint tris). In any event, I have lots more miles and a fair amount of training under my belt than I did last summer. I've gotten faster and stronger, and he's made a few comments to that effect when we've seen each other at rides.

A few weeks ago, I showed up at a small group ride and much to my surprise, he and his best riding buddy--who races--were there too. While we've seen each other at (large) club rides, this was the first time since we had ended things that we were actually set to ride together. The day before, the three of us had done a rather tough climbing club ride and we were all just a little beat, but it was a beautiful day and I, for one, felt ready to go.

Anyway, the ride started with a warmup on our local MUT. Then we hit the road. We started the ride with about 15 people, all but four of whom were men. We got in a double paceline and the speeds starting ramping up until we were cruising around 24 mph. I even did a pull or two at that speed. Bit by bit, the group started to thin out. Three of the other women fell off as did some of the guys who are generally part of the faster packs at club rides.

But there I stayed. Forty-five miles later, I finished with the lead group, including my ex and his friend. I'm sure it wasn't the fastest of rides for them, but it was fast enough to illustrate that I've come a long way since last summer. While impressing him is not why I ride or ride hard, it was still a red letter day for me.

And P.S.: His Bikejournal entry listed it as a "training" ride.

[Whip]

Great topic. Just want to jump on the "got to put in the work" theme.

While it is true that we can get a bit faster just by riding and keeping at it - it is truly amazing what just a little concentrated effort can do for your speed.

The trick to getting faster obviously is being able to ride harder for longer and one of the best ways to learn that is by doing one or two interval sessions a week. The interval session just below, at and above your LT will help you get more comfortable going harder and help you recover faster - which (at least to me) is one of the keys to being able to survive the constant surges and attacks in a fast group ride. I know everyone is training with Power Meters these days, but I can't afford one so I still use Heart Rate for my intervals. NOTHING helped me get faster ... uh, faster ... then intervals - including the hill repeats RoadRaven talked about ... AND...

Riding with people who are faster than me - especially if you can organize rides with people who are faster, but are committed to riding with you - and basically stopping every so often so you can catch up - not easy to find, but if you can do it, I recommend it because that way you don't just get dropped once, you get dropped and have to chase like twenty or more times. The trick is to keep chasing - don't give up. It took me a long time to listen to my husband who sounded like a broken record "ride with faster people, ride with faster people" but doing exactly that brought me from a 11-13 average to being able to do 21-24 in race and 15-19 on my own. It was really hard for me to get there, but it was so worth it.

Of course, if you do this kind of training, recovery is even more important - one or two monster efforts a week and then ride slow. A lot of coaches say that one of the biggest mistakes cyclists make is not going hard enough on hard days and not going easy enough on easy days.

[Kano]

Karen, speaking for myself, I don't focus much on my average speeds on climbing rides. They're just a whole other kettle of fish.

Ain't THAT the truth!

I think any talk of average speed has to include the caveat that there's no real point in comparing yourself to another ride who might be riding totally different terrain, on a different type of bike, who is younger/older/thinner/heavier/better trained, etc., etc. There are too many variables.

Again -- I agree mightily! As simple as this idea should be, it took me a while to learn and to put it into practice. I think it was even more challenging to ride with people, even DH, who's been in this same boat all these years, and SEE the differences! I would struggle with things they made look easy and get horribly frustrated, mostly with myself, because DANG: what I've done to myself over the last 20-some years and how much fixing it's going to take! Until I could ACCEPT the knowledge that I'd only just gotten on this path and need to work at it for a while before I can get anywhere near where I want to be, well...

Fortunately, the positive results I mostly feel sure help!

The better practice is to compare your own progress, in light of your own goals. For me, I didn't want to be the one bringing up the rear at every ride, so I've worked hard at improving my speed. It's not a goal in and of itself and every time I've gotten too worked up about it, I've had to keep my eye on the bigger picture: that riding my bike at any speed is more fun and better for me that sitting on my couch.

Oh yes, bringing up the rear on every ride -- the first time I was NOT last was one heckuva day for me! And, it's pretty cool to be more in the middle this year, on the rare occasion that I've been able to ride with a group -- and like you say, it's all fun and better than sitting on the couch, except after the ride! Then it's nice to sit under the ceiling fan.....

Karen in Boise

[indysteel]

I think any talk of average speed has to include the caveat that there's no real point in comparing yourself to another rider who might be riding totally different terrain, on a different type of bike, who is younger/older/thinner/heavier/better trained, etc., etc. There are too many variables. The better practice is to compare your own progress, in light of your own goals. For me, I didn't want to be the one bringing up the rear at every ride, so I've worked hard at improving my speed. It's not a goal in and of itself and every time I've gotten too worked up about it, I've had to keep my eye on the bigger picture: that riding my bike at any speed is more fun and better for me that sitting on my couch.

Nafula, I'll repeat my own caveat about averages. "Fast" and "slow" are relative terms. Ride and train the way you want to ride and train, i.e., the way that makes you feel good about exercising and riding a bike. I have a friend that describes herself as a "distance girl." She has no interest in how fast she goes, but I describe her as the strongest cyclist I know because she climbs like a goat and can go for miles on end. Could I "outrun" her on the flats? Maybe, but what would that prove?

Admittedly, I like getting faster, but it's just one way of measuring "progress." I'll emphasize again that for me it's not about the speed itself, but about increasing my fitness level, testing my limits and pushing myself. I have friends who I want to ride with or continue riding with who are faster than me so it's also a function of necessity. In any event, one of great things about cycling is that it's a flexible sport which allows each of us to individualize our goals to meet our lifestyle, fitness level, age, priorities, personality, interests, etc. There's no one way of approaching it, in my opinion, that's any more legitimate, more praiseworthy or laudable than another.

So please don't feel discouraged by whatever your average speed is relative to mine or anybody else's. Or if you do get discouraged--like I've been in the past--use it to motivate you if getting faster is a goal that you'd like to set for yourself. Otherwise, just have fun and keep riding.

[jobob]

And now another question that just popped into my head: I'm not sure I've seen my "mountain goat idols" posting their speed info? Maybe you ladies avoid these discussions of "I go this fast" ???

Not a mountain goat idol by any means, but yes, I tend to avoid these discussions. I only posted on the other "how fast am I in relation to you?" thread to provide the link to our previous discussion in that regard, to caution all the new folks as to how discouraging and downright unpleasant this topic can become.

Those of you who regularly do climbs like Mimi's amazing ride last weekend: if 17-18 are "only" averages, do you have "miserable" average speeds too?

Um, not even close, and as maillotpois can attest, I have some mighty crummy days from time to time.

You're more than welcome to check out my journal on bikejournal.com (I'm jobob there as well) if you want to see what I'm talking about.

So reading through all these posts, I'm not sure if I'm encouraged, or discouraged.

That's why I avoid these discussions. Sure, it's an ego boost to some, but it can be very discouraging to others.

But that said, there are a lot of good stories and suggestions in this thread.

I'm really glad you're not discouraged, nafula. Give it time, be patient with yourself. You'll get stronger. Trust me.

For what it's worth, I do care about my own speed, but just in relation to me. That's why I keep a journal, to track my own progress. I'm really pleased with how my speed has improved over time. I've had to work at it, and I'm beginning to see the results. The reason why I'm caring about my speed at this point in time is that I'm training for a moderately hilly double century in October, and while I'm reasonably confident I can make the 18 hour cutoff time, I'd just as soon be able to finish it in less time than that.

[indysteel]

That's precisely why I avoid these discussions. Sure, it's an ego boost to some, but it can be very discouraging to others.

Having just read through that awful thread from last fall, I understand that average speed discussions can get ugly, especially when someone makes a horribly harsh and unfair comment about riders at a certain pace being slow. That comment was certainly neither helpful nor kind. However, the OP in this thread asked about getting faster, which in my mind, is a legitimate goal in cycling and one that warrants a discussion. Although average speeds have factored into the discussion, both I and others have repeatedly emphasized that comparing respective averages is less than helpful on a number of levels. The tone of the discussion has otherwise been, in my opinion, encouraging, helpful and positive. Not that you're pointing fingers, but I certainly didn't share my own experiences to get an ego boost.

The fact is that whether we're discussing average speeds, a race or ride report or climbing feet tallies, there's always a risk that someone will inadvertently end up feeling discouraged because they perceive that they don't measure up. While certain discussions more than others inherently invite such less-than-helpful comparisons, it's ultimately up to each of us to choose our inner cheerleader over our inner critic and to look to those we perceive as "better" in some way as a source of inspiration rather than a source of shame.

[maillotpois]

.... it's ultimately up to each of us to choose our inner cheerleader over our inner critic and to look to those we perceive as "better" in some way as a source of inspiration rather than a source of shame.

That is EXCELLENT. Very well said.

You're more than welcome to check out my journal on bikejournal.com (I'm jobob there as well) if you want to see what I'm talking about.

Ditto. (Except for the part about being jobob. I'm still maillotpois... )

[indysteel]

Maillotpois, I just read a few of your bikejournal entries. I love reading ride reports from other parts of the country, especially from CA, because the terrain is SO different from Indiana. At least in central Indiana, we've got nothing but flat country roads for most part. Doing a ride with even 5k of climbing is a challenge--in more ways than one. Given how flat it is, it's hard to get really pumped from a ride, which is another reason I think I focus on getting faster. As a friend of mine says, it's hard to give a "hell ya" after passing yet another cornfield.

Anyway, your rides look amazing. I would love--or at least I think I would--to live someplace that had some really good, long climbs. I just haven't been able to test myself in that way. Do you ever just want some flatlands? Can we trade for a summer?

K-